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Discussion Starter #1
In the beginning were the good people and the bad people.The good people were armed, and so were the bad people. The good people were not organized for chasing bad guys all the time, and usually too busy working their farms and such, to take the time.
So Law enforcement was created to be INBETWEEN the good people and the badguys, (BG's), to protect the rights and lives of the good people, and bring the BG's to justice.
Now it seems, (probably because so many LEO's lost their lives to BG's),that law enforcement backed away from being inbetween the good and bad, and created a triangle where they cover everyone, and everyone is considered a BG until proven otherwise. This is not right and there is alot of good people who realise that they are being shorted in this deal and are willing to risk their lives to maintain their citizenship rights, and rightly so. I wouldnt want to have a life or death confrontation with LEO's over my rights. Most are well meaning, but misguided in their thinking about who has rights and who is supposed to be protecting who from who. If us constitutionalists "cooperate for our own good, in good faith", we always get screwed at the court house. The LEO was acting in good faith, not his fault. But if we KNOW that were gonna get screwed in court, some may think its better to settle it on the street? Bad senario with good people facing off with good LEO's.
The last couple years I've been standing on my rights and excercising them more, much to the LEO's chagrin. I seem to always fare better standing firm, lately.
You LEO's have enough to worry about facing off with the scum, why have to worry about the good people who just want respect for their rights, too? Yes armed citizens are dangerous, but not necessarily threats....
What can we do to respect each other without giving up our rights?

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Its that last line: "without giving up our rights", thats keeping you guys from responding, right?

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Originally posted by Edward429451:
You LEO's have enough to worry about facing off with the scum, why have to worry about the good people who just want respect for their rights, too?
Because good people usually don't wear signs that say "I'm a good person who just happens to be armed." That would make life a lot easier for all of us.

How are LEO's supposed to know the good from the scum?

Your posts make it sound like you have been needlessly harrassed in the past? If that is the case, then there are means to deal with that. An officer detaining you for a couple minutes and asking a couple questions does not mean that you have to get all defensive and start making statements about rights and how you are simply standing up for them. Are LEO's trying to take your rights away? I doubt it. But a LEO who isn't in condition yellow all the time is ten times more likely to die. Don't criticize those who put themselves in harm's way to keep you safe.

Granted, most BG's don't wear holsters, but if I had reason to detain you or question you for ANY reason (yes- probable cause), don't think for a second I would not disarm you - unless you were wearing your "good guy" sign.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Dont misunderstand me, I'm merely apprehensive about the future, I fear there'll come a time that if I want to keep my gun (s), I'll either have to fight or run.
One more columbine type incident, and they're liable to just outright outlaw possession altogether. I dont want an incident with any LEO's, they'll just be following orders. I dont wear a good guy sign, but I fear that the LEO will identify me as a BG, by my pistol. Does me not feeling the legal need to get a CCW permit going to stop you from trying to arrest me? I think not. I feel like we're supposed to be on the same side, but I sure dont get treated that way, even when I'm not caught CCW without a so-called permit. Maybe I should go try to hang out with the local LEO's so they can get to know me?
Is this fight or flight urge that I fear I may have to do in the future rational and reasonable?

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Edward...I am not a Leo...and I don't play one on TV.

However....You talk about being a good guy...well...the way I was brought up...the good guy followed the Law...even if he disagreed with the law...

In case you don't know it...by carrying concealed without a permit...you cross the line to BG...Now you are one of the guys that the LEOs have to arrest.

Now...first off...I agree...I think that we should all have carry rights...But...I also believe in not being a BG...Maybe you need to take your fight into the political arena...Maybe you need to become the sqeaky wheel that will get the laws in your state changed.

Is there a reason that you can't go through the procedure to get a concealed permit???

Is there a reason that you can't become legaly involved in your state with the politics of change???

I apologize if I am reading more into your post than is there...but...I don't think an out and out challenge to the LEOs is going to solve anything(other than you ending up in a bad situation).
 

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well, i must say that the title of this topic is what got me, "whatever happened to law enforcement" well, i just got home, its the middle of the night, and i haven't seen my kids for more than 30 minutes in a couple of days. i have been working, arresting a guy that was drunk and wanted to start a fight in a local hamburger joint. he didn't like the fact that i was arresting him, so he told what he thought. (i remained nice and polite, but he still went"

as far as carrying a gun, i think people should be able to. when i make a traffic stop and the guy tells me he has a gun AND a permit, i respect the fact that he tells me. even if they didn't have a permit i have had people tell me they had a gun in the car, and where it was.

i'm not trying to argue, but do you drive without a drivers license? you have the right to move about freely in this country, so why get one? i'm sure you know how to drive, and you know it too, so why waist time and money taking a test and getting a card that says your up to government standards on driviing?

the point here is that there are some laws that are just plain dumb, BUT as a cop, i have to enforce ALL the laws, becaue i can't pick and choose what i will enforce on what day, and i can't be the judge on the street and say, "YOUR A GOOD GUY, SO ITS OK IF YOU BREAK THE JUST A LITTLE AND CARRY A GUN"

again, i believe that people have the right to carry a gun, i carry one 24 hours a day, on duty and off, and if i am one day no longer a police officer with the right to carry, i will get my permit and carry some more"

like said above, i don't know you, i can't tell if your a good guy unless you wear your sign, and my saftey comes first, before your "right to carry without taking the legal steps". no one knows what a bad guy looks like, they come in different faces and clothes. i maintain that the police officer should never be rude to anyone, but don't take officer saftey as rudeness.

no one will raise my two little girls but ME, i'm going home after my shift!

russel the cop

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CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPARED MIND....
 

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Originally posted by RUSSEL213:
there are some laws that are just plain dumb, BUT as a cop, i have to enforce ALL the laws, becaue i can't pick and choose what i will enforce on what day, and i can't be the judge on the street russel the cop

Russel not that I am taking Edwards position in this matter because I am not. If Edward started the, "what's your probable cause" crud with me when I asked for his gun, I would pretty much figure it was about to get deadly and he would be looking at the end of one of my enforcement tools until we had a chance to sort him out.

With that said I disagree with what you just said. Unless your state statues specifically states the following, enforcement of certain laws is optional. "The officer shall." There are also laws that state that the officer "may." So unless you are require to enforce all laws by statute you may in fact pick and choose.

In closing you are judge on the street. If you arrest them then you judge them to be guilty, otherwise why did you arrest them?
 

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I have to say this. Until you walked a mile in my shoes. As a police officer I have seconds to decide a course of action that lawyers, judges and juries ponder over for weeks. I am the one who lets you have the first shot. 3 weeks ago I had to fight a EDP, it took me 5 minutes to subdue and control him. Now his lawyer says I have caused him emotional distressed, how about my distress when he was trying to beat my a&^? Any way I have no problem with LEGALLY armed citizens exercising their Constitutional rights, some however have no common sense. They "flash" their weapon in public, someone sees it and calls me. I will treat you like a threat till I determine you are not, thats my right to be able to go home at the end of my shift.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Let me say that I appreciate you guys giving me your input on this. I dont feel like I'm disobeying the "law" by not getting the CCW permit. LEO's enforce the "laws", but what if the law was unconstitutional in the first place. I know it, some of you know it. The gun laws are coming to a head. Which time will be the last time I'll see my gun if I handed to an officer. I HAVE BEEN cooperating with LEO's, several times have I declared my gun and got it back. I've never flashed it, I dont drink, I wont be stupid. 17 years without an incident. I'd say that makes me either lucky or level headed, or a little of both. No reason I couldnt get the permit to carry, but if I accepted it, I would be legally implying that since they issued it, they can revoke it, correct?
I'm afraid that each time would/could be the last time. "Sorry sir, we're down to 6 rounds now, or you got the wrong kind of grips, (or whatever), so we're gonna have to keep it." This will be the time that I'll wish I would've ran, fight or flight syndrome. I'm not ready to go off the deep end or anything like that, just wanted some feedback from some LEO's on how I might be able to handle the situation better. If they up and outlawed possession altogether, Then I would be a BG and LEO would be the ones to look out for. This is a very funky situation to be in, and like the officer said, he wants to go home to his family at night. I want him to also, but what about me and my family? dont we count? The LAST thing I want, is to go head to head with LEO's over something that is beyond both of ours control. Peace be with us, my friends, come to my home, meet my family and BBQ with us personally, that ye may judge our character for yourself and know, that we're good guys too.....

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm not critisizing LEO's for watching their backs. Indeed, condition yellow all the time.

I have been sorta needlessly harrassed in the past, but it wasnt the LEO's on the street. It was the courts, refusing to be reasonable. If I know I'll not get a fair shake in court, what are my reasonable options? You see?, this is where this is coming from.
Russel213, and if they told you no duty and no permit to carry, then what would you do? Turn em' in?

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Originally posted by DHMeieio:
"Hey officers, can I hang around with you so you will know I'm a good guy and not stop me when I'm breaking the law? Does the fact that I see no legal need to obey the speed limit mean that you will have to pull me over and give me a ticket for doing 90? I see no legal need to pay for items I carry out of Wal-Mart, can't you just recognize that I'm a good guy who just happens to break the law at my own whim, and leave me alone?"
You bet DH, I think that would be swell. With you around I will have help to pull Timmy out of the well after Lassies tell's us he fell in. Gosh, maybe even we can hang around Mr. Ed's stall and make fun of Wilbur.
 

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RUSSEL213, I have a permit in my state, and a couple of more--but what am I supposed to do while traveling in well how about Illinois? Missouri? Kansas? Ohio? ETC,ETC. Or perhaps a state that does not recognize my permits and does not have non-resident permits??

Should I A: Not travel in these states? B: Not defend myself and family in these states? or C: Break the laws of these states? I will not ask what you do as an LEO on vacation Because it is not a question you should have to answer in print, but after reading your post I could guess. GLV
 

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Originally posted by GLV:
RUSSEL213, I have a permit in my state, and a couple of more--but what am I supposed to do while traveling in well how about Illinois? Missouri? Kansas? Ohio? ETC,ETC. Or perhaps a state that does not recognize my permits and does not have non-resident permits??

Should I A: Not travel in these states? B: Not defend myself and family in these states? or C: Break the laws of these states? I will not ask what you do as an LEO on vacation Because it is not a question you should have to answer in print, but after reading your post I could guess. GLV
I know you asked this of Russel but you bring up a really good point. The whole situation of not recognizing laws in one state or another is nuts. There should be an allowance for people passing through.

I had to go to Wyoming several years ago to pick up a prisoner in one of my cases. Wyoming not only did not recognize my peace officer powers but would not allow me to carry a gun into their state even though I was on official business. They were "kind" enough to TT my agency and warn me before I departed.

Two weeks later I went to Lousiville KY for another prisoner and they recognized my status and need to carry.

The whole damn thing is ridiculous. I would never even consider arresting a person here in California for a CCW violation if they had a permit from another state and the circumstances indicated the person was visiting. Such things as being in a car with out of state plates, DL, etc., easily establishes who is and who isn't visiting.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
DHMeieio,

Hey, I'm tryin' to get some answers to some serious questions here, if you got nothing positive to add, stay the heck out of it you smart aleck PUNK!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm done with this thread. Its gone past debate and advice to the trolls. To all who attempted reasonable responses, Thank you very much. This includes: Shane, the most reasonable one of all, Bronco, Russell, Patrick, (sense of humor, but did try to help,I think), and GLV.
This was a very serious thread and a little debate beforehand could've saved me and YOU some s**t if we ever encounter each other on the street. Thanks again.

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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 

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Originally posted by DHMeieio:
You really had me rolling there. Edward doesn't share our sense of humor I guess.
Oh, dang. There I go again with my sick cop humor. Look DH, maybe you shouldn’t hang around me after all. My bad traits seem to be rubbing off on you. Shoot, I was so looking forward to mucking out Mr. Ed’s stall too.
 

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wow, this thread went nuts since i posted.

first i'm in a little better mood tonight, maybe what i was trying to say will come out a little better.

yes, a lot of things are left up to officer descretion, i have let people go that had firearms. in oklahoma, you can carry an unloaded handgun in the vehicle, as long as its in view, me, i worry more about where your hands are.

i went to a school in missouri back in july, and i had a guy from a different dept ask me if i stopped and emptied my sidearm when i left oklahoma and was in missiouri. i said no why should i, and he said that he has heard of cops from other states being arrested for carrying a gun in missouri. i thought he was kidding until heard from several other people, this is common knowledge and i didn't know it. well, i carried anyway, beacuse i never get in my police car (which i drove there) without a loaded gun.

i can see the points here, and i wish there were easy answers, personally i didn't like the fact that i felt like i had to "hide" me gun, casue i wasn't leaving it in the car, it stayed in the room with me.

the people of this country have the right to keep and bear arms, and for the first time in a long time they are given a "permit" to carry it. i hope the laws will change someday so we don't have to worry about it, that is down the road farther than i can see.

i think that while you have the right to carry, if the state law says you need a permit, than you should respect it, it will keep you out of as much trouble, and having a permit won't increase the chance of your right being taken away.

i always carry, and to be honest, i always will. i respect that right of others, but if you can get a permit, i think you would be wise to get one. not every cop is going to be as understanding as me.

russel the cop
 

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Originally posted by RUSSEL213:
wow, this thread went nuts since i posted.
Yikes!
No kidding!!! I thought it had fizzled out - looks like I missed most of the fun too!
 

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Originally posted by shane45-1911:
looks like I missed most of the fun too!
Hmmm, that uniform looks a little rumpled Shane and I haven't heard any radio traffic from you in a while. You haven't been snoozen in the cruiser now, have you?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
OK I lied, I'm back. I'm in a better mood today. Re-reading the thread and then giving my brain a chance to chew on it did much for my sense of reasoning I think.

I think you guys pretty much talked me into going and getting the CCW permit. I never did come around to seeing the guy from LA's humor though.

I dont want to be a BG, or to be perceived as one. If I go get the permit I will have done everything in my power to comply with the so called laws. If the laws back me into a corner, I can always easily cross the line to being a BG, although a "good" one. It might not be so easy to cross back so I probably have a responsibility to do what I can to comply, for as long as I can.

I have no urge to a politician, the stench is too great in D.C., plus, I probably take the issue too seriously so they would'nt like me very much in D.C.

Shane, in rereading your posts, I realize that I misunderstood and gave the wrong reply to your "if the LEO asked me to surrender my weapon, what would I do?" I would never exit my vehicle in response to a traffic stop, carrying openly on my person. I would not ask about his probable cause if wearing openly, that seems lunacy. As I stated before, if/when stopped, I put my pistol on the seat in plain view, exit and lock my vehicle. If the situation is such that I feel the need to declare it, (like if he heads towards my vehicle to look for beer bottles or whatever), then I declare it, if not, I wont. I can see where some would think it antagonistic to start asking about PC with a gun strapped on in plain view! DUH.
But if I had exited and locked my vehicle with the pistol inside said vehicle, could you not "sort me out" without retreiving pistol from vehicle? That is when I would politly ask about PC. In this situation, I dont think it'd be antagonistic, at least, it should'nt be. Any police work can be reasonably accomplished with me outside the locked vehicle, where the gun is inside of it. Misunderstanding, sorry.
Does that sound a little more reasonable?

Russell, with me not having a permit to conceal, so I put it in plain view on the seat and my hands on the wheel, how comfortable would you be, walking up and seeing that? I do not think you'd be too comfortable with that senario, so if I exited and locked the vehicle (with gun inside), are we not both protected from each other? I would think so.
BTW, I never did think you came off wrong in your post(s), even though the "debate" got a little heated, your professionalism shined through and I respect that.

The only other thing I could say at this time is, Boy am I glad we could/did talk about this on the internet, instead of on the street! Misunderstandings on the net is no big deal, on the street it could be deadly!



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"Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark"
Lazarus Long
 
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