What's the point of a magazine safety?
61 - 80 of 103 Posts
Joined
·
928 Posts
Frankly, though I use them, safeties don't make anything safe at all. They can't stop arrant stupidity. They are a frail barrier against mischance. Guns can be dangerous in any hands. Thought, care, and good practice of Cooper's Rules, best I can do. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety
Joined
·
118 Posts
Mostly they're anti-second amendment politically correct crap, like the series 80 trigger/firing pin safety...just more over kill safety stuff, involving extra Diane Feinstein type parts, that can foul you up. Some are designed to keep you from accidentally hitting the mag release on recoil when you don't know how to properly hold a weapon.
Joined
·
2,219 Posts
I ran a few internet leads looking at that case, does not make sense really. He was 36, prior enlisted guy in the Navy, several years in the reserves, he was not new to the m9.
One of my first investigations I performed in one of my military jobs was a suicide. The guy had Top Secret clearance with access to SCI. The military does an extensive investigation when a person with access suddenly commits suicide for obvious reasons and I have worked many for CENTCOM, SOCOM, Air Force and others. An investigator spends a lot of time looking at their history, girlfriends, exes, gambling, drugs and all of that. But sometimes, people commit suicide for no apparent motive. I had one where a young NCO had just purchased tickets for a vacation and was looking at buying a house and forward thinking plans, nothing going wrong in his life. He took a black powder pistol, went to state park and shot himself, or that is the conclusion we reached. No desperation, no domestic issues, nothing. There is always a reason, it just has to be found.
I was in a big shooting complex a few years ago when a guy came in, shot for about 30 minutes and he did many times. Then he loaded the gun, stuck it to his head and shot himself. We all thought it was a loose round. It was not, it was 100% on video from the minute he came in. The local PD obviously concluded suicide but never found a credible motive.
When a military guy commits suicide the military considers that a failure and no stone is unturned. To keep the integrity of the investigation unbiased, the cases I worked were for the IG, the agency, Army, Air Force, etc, really does not get to do the investigation. For the special ops folks who may not exist and whose missions do not exist, when there is a death or suicide there are designated investigators to deploy wherever they may be and run an investigation. I was one of those guys too. I do not know where Jimmy Hoff is buried but I know the guy who has the shovel, joke.
I say all that to say this, it makes no sense for a military officer, warrant or NCO to shoot himself while cleaning an
M9, he has done that before. He had a wife of 3 years and a 2 year old son. I have to wonder if there were problems in the marriage. He had prior time in the Navy where he intended to become a Seal but for unknown reasons, he left the Navy going into the reserves, then went back in later wanting to fly choppers. He obtained a commission in the Marines with a ground billet and later got a job flying. The guy had a college degree, he was an achiever. I think he may have got back thru ROTC. I did read where he was the class or troop leader.
Point is here is no logical reason for him to have that accident. If it was a suicide, he was a very smart guy. They do things like that, go through a long gun cleaning process to make it look like a suicide, with witnesses present. The reason is so the family will get benefits. The investigation would end with as you said, he was cleaning a gun and it went off, investigation closed. The commander, would simply lock it away as an accident and the family would get a great deal of benefits. People who commit suicide to things like that and he was a smart guy. Just a theory, nothing more. People kill themselves all the time with guns, just does not sound right. Bad deal either way.
We lost a good guy.
.
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
We are starting to go afield of the original intent of the thread. Yet, the original topic is just being mulled over with frustrations about anti-gun attitudes, so....
Like piloting aircraft, firearms are the same, one moment of inattention can get you killed. The best expert, gets complacent, he can have a deadly accident as a foolish novice. So we can't rule out it was simply an accident, a mindless slip is all it takes in these cases.
Military culture and particular the individuals attracted to the military, tend more than others to put up walls, not ask for help and try to tough it. And they are in jobs that are high pressure. I think that is why you see some individuals committing suicide yet there were no signs as to why, cause they are good at hiding those signs.
Military culture and the individuals drawn to it also support what you're saying, they will go to elaborate lengths to make their suicide look like an accident to maintain honor and spare their family pain.
We really do not know, several things could be possible, and I'm not a fan of concluding things merely on reputation or what is typical of other situations.
I have read and heard the biggest number of negligent discharges are while cleaning the firearm. I "thought" I read that about why the Army insisted the M17/M18 have safety provisions for cleaning. The take down lever is locked out till the magazine is removed and the slide is locked back with the slide stop, the trigger is disabled after assembly, until the slide is locked back with the slide stop. But I'm not confident it is true its the number 1 cause, so I did a search on it to confirm, couldn't really find much. BUT, I found this on accident.
Negligent discharges: One subject the military really doesn't like to talk about
Here's an amazing number that I had never seen before: Since the beginning of the U.S. operation in Iraq, more than 90 U.S. military personnel…
foreignpolicy.com
They claim this;
I don't know how true it is, we never heard that and we were talking to everyone in the Wing about it just after it happened. But to be honest that was nothing more than the rumor mill. Its possible that was what happened and the Command pressure people not to reveal it, as not to tarnish the Captains memory, to save the family embarrassment or even embarrassment on the command.
Oh, and one thing about the M9, since I carried one daily for 9 months, its easy to flip off the thumb safety and not notice. It was against regs, but I usually carried my M9 with an empty chamber, and I wasn't the only one. Did my own risk assessment and figured I was more likely to have an accident than I was to encounter a situation that was so sudden that taking the time chamber a round would make a difference, and there were situations that I did chamber a round while I carried, cause the risk assessment changed.
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
We had a family friend that also had a Top Secret SCI clearance as well, working in the Tomahawk Cruise Missile program. We had to talk to investigators because of exactly what you a say.
The guy died in a traffic accident, at 4am he hit a bridge embankment at highway speed, died instantly. But this was after his wife had discovered he had an affair and she kicked him out of the house and was demanding a divorce. But at the same time, he spent the entire afternoon through evening and into the wee hours of the morning arguing and groveling with wife over the discovery of the affair, to be kicked out of the house a 3:30am to drive an hour to someplace he could stay (forget if it was a friend or his mistress).
So you can't rule out it was suicide or he fell asleep at the wheel and drifted off the road for a deadly accident. The facts of the case support both possibilities.
The only thing I’ll say is that if you remove any safety device and then have an accidental discharge you can look forward to a major lawsuit. if you don’t want a magazine safety, and I’m not fond of them, buy a pistol that doesn’t have one.
I consider myself fortunate but also careful with any firearm not having ever had a ND or AD‘s in 60 years of shooting and 55 years of gun ownership. I have never owned a gun with a magazine disconnect nor do I intend to. A lot of people that have had the misfortune of having a AD or ND may have been somewhat lucky in that they occur when loading/unloading/mishandling a firearm. I have seen a few at the range but none that ended in an injury or a lawsuit. I don’t know of many lawsuits that have resulted from said event. Perhaps you have a source of information for these lawsuits? My previous statement in my post stands. I have no use for them.
The pistol I posted this thread about (GSG 1911 22) was an impulse buyand I had no idea it had that feature. Who would even think about it on a 1911? When I got it home & took it apart to clean & oil & put it back together then tried to drop the hammer is when I discovered it. Probably would have bought it anyway.
Joined
·
2,219 Posts
Same thing happened to me. But the GSG is not a 1911, it is a look alike 1911 and works well for what it is designed for targeting shooting. I have a light and laser on mine and have shot several skunks at night, The magazine safety is annoying. I will not carry a gun with one, but will just live with it on the 22.
Joined
·
7,093 Posts
Gonna sue yerself?
That's what it's called, it's printed on the box & it's a darn good facsimile.
Joined
·
239 Posts
Not an opinion but I think on my Buckmark they did it to stop dry firing with mag out; bangs the breech face.
Joined
·
2,219 Posts
LOL OK whatever you say. Take the barrel out and look at it end to end, then see if it goes back in like a 1911 does. The bottom half of the gun is spot on 1911, the top half not so much. That said, the GSG 1911-22 is about the best value in a 22 semi auto pistol that there can be. Mine is more accurate than I am, it is a tack driver.
I shoot mine suppressed which makes it more fun, highly recommend everyone own at least one suppressor, the rimfire, for fun, save your ears--I am 50% hearing loss per the VA, my wife says they are wrong, and you can shoot Hollywood quiet and not disturb neighbors and some animals do not make the connection or something kicking up dust and you over there.
Have you seen the replacement follower that changes the capacity from 10 to 14 rounds? They are slick and cheap, work just fine, takes 2 seconds to change them. The factory follower is about 1.5 inches tall, this little short one adds 4 rounds. Joe Bobs has the spare mags on sale for $24 and I think the replacement followers are $4. Those mags are normally $30 the last time I bought.
It is kind of like the 1911 look alike that TIA makes in 22 magnum. I sure like the looks, and feel and all of that. But like our GSG it is a zinc slide gun with the barrel solidly attached to the frame.
No, the barrel does not attach like a 1911 but that's about the only difference but mine is an aluminum slide. And yes I have suppressors. Mine is not very accurate, I think it may be actually but the looseness of the slide causes the sights to change between shots but it's still fun to shoot.
Do you have a link to that mag follower?
Joined
·
2,219 Posts
Joe Bob Outfitters.
JoeBob's GSG/SIG 1911 22LR +4rd High Cap Follower (joeboboutfitters.com)
Spare magazines are $24 today, I paid $30 a few months ago. Mine is very accurate and has fired a lot of rounds. I think the weight of the suppressor may add in accuracy.
Doesn't effect mine at all.
Thanks for the link.
A couple of things.
One- I am surprised a 1911 thread on gun safeties lays on the ‘nanny state’ angle about them.
I always use the 1911 as an example when taking with the trigger discipline guys with Glocks- does anyone carry a 1911 condition 0?
Second- I believe this is phrased wrong.
These are magazine ‘disconnects’ not safeties.
For a service weapon I believe they make a lot of sense as they simplify failure to fire drill and avoid the worst types of jambs which can be caused by partially seated magazines.
In terms of effect on function the M45 stands out as a particularly well designed magazine disconnect in not having any effect on trigger.
One- I am surprised a 1911 thread on gun safeties lays on the ‘nanny state’ angle about them.
I always use the 1911 as an example when taking with the trigger discipline guys with Glocks- does anyone carry a 1911 condition 0?
Second- I believe this is phrased wrong.
These are magazine ‘disconnects’ not safeties.
For a service weapon I believe they make a lot of sense as they simplify failure to fire drill and avoid the worst types of jambs which can be caused by partially seated magazines.
In terms of effect on function the M45 stands out as a particularly well designed magazine disconnect in not having any effect on trigger.
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
What I am missing here? If you partially seat a magazine, it is better for the firearm to be disabled? If you have a round chambered, that becomes unusable as well. If its only better for training, so you don't pick up bad habits, then wouldn't a magazine safety/disconnect make a pistol a training only pistol.
I don't know if every manufacturer calls it a safety feature, but everyone I've seen discuss it called it a safety feature.
Common usage does not equate to correct usage.
Many many people call a magazine disconnect a magazine ‘safety’.
Doing so discounts or fails to recognize the other functions which this feature provides to the weapon system and why it may have been adopted by end users.
It is very common to emphasize the safety aspects alone when describing magazine disconnects:
www.americanrifleman.org
The worse failure of an auto is a jamb which cannot be quickly cleared.
Fully seated mags eliminate one cause.
I do wonder if the design requirement and reasons is accessible for say the P35, M49 and the Luger.
How many have shot an M49.
I find it incongruous to say that THAT trigger was specified by a service who was strongly focused on ND’s to the extent that a mag disconnect would be used to protect dummies who couldn’t remember if a round was chambered..
Many many people call a magazine disconnect a magazine ‘safety’.
Doing so discounts or fails to recognize the other functions which this feature provides to the weapon system and why it may have been adopted by end users.
It is very common to emphasize the safety aspects alone when describing magazine disconnects:
An Official Journal Of The NRA | Rifleman Q&A: What Is A Magazine Disconnect?
Sometimes there are some technical phrases that can be confusing to new shooters. One such term is the "magazine disconnect," a safety feature found on some firearms.
The worse failure of an auto is a jamb which cannot be quickly cleared.
Fully seated mags eliminate one cause.
I do wonder if the design requirement and reasons is accessible for say the P35, M49 and the Luger.
How many have shot an M49.
I find it incongruous to say that THAT trigger was specified by a service who was strongly focused on ND’s to the extent that a mag disconnect would be used to protect dummies who couldn’t remember if a round was chambered..
61 - 80 of 103 Posts
