What's wrong with stainless?
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I went to Gunsmithing school in NC. There we were told that when dealing with stainless 1911 you had to be extra careful when you tried to squeeze the slide and peen the rails. It seems that the stainless at least what Colt used in their 1911 that a class made had was more brittle than the carbon steel of the Series 70 I was working on. When peening his frame rails he cracked a hunk of the rail off. Galling would occur between any moving SS parts. Other than that I can't really help and I will be watching this to see what answers you get from the more knowledgeable members here. Sean
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Galling looks like the metal has been "smeared". Prevent it with adequate and frequent lubrication.
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Yes, it is. Stainless steel is a lot harder on cutting tools because it holds heat and has a higher coeffecient of friction.
I'm not a metallurgist, that's simply what I've been told by other gunsmiths. Maybe Metalsmith can shed more light on the subject.
I'm not a metallurgist, that's simply what I've been told by other gunsmiths. Maybe Metalsmith can shed more light on the subject.
I asked Brownell's smith the same question years ago why checkering SS gun was more expensive than carbon steel, despite it's no stronger than the counter part. I wish I could remember his name (apology.) He told me that SS tended to gum up during the checkering and that shortened the tools life.
He further said he usually replaced the checkering tools about every 6 frames on CS, versus every frame on SS.
[This message has been edited by Wit (edited 06-06-2001).]
He further said he usually replaced the checkering tools about every 6 frames on CS, versus every frame on SS.
[This message has been edited by Wit (edited 06-06-2001).]
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Hello DSK & everyone, we’re really opening up a can of worms when talking about different types of stainless steels, metallurgy, hardness and galling because there are hundreds of different types formulated for different applications. When you add or subtract certain elements such as chromium, nickel and carbon you compromise another quality. I’m not sure of the exact alloying elements or lack of that attributes to the galling, I’d have to look it up but in our gunsmithing work it’s really a moot point because we are stuck with what we have to work with.
Yes stainless steel does have a bad reputation for galling and machining. Smearing of the steel is a good description as noted above when tolerances are to tight when rubbed together with friction. For example if the slide and frame are fit to tight the parts may gall and bind. If a few thousandths of clearance is left galling should not be a problem.
I have read on this forum that some smith can fit slides & frames snug and lap them smooth with good results. I think this is a gamble. I seen one nice stainless slide to frame tightened in the traditional squeeze & peen method and lapped so smooth if felt like it was running on KY. I’d a bet a weeks pay it would never gall.
It was lubed with a generous amount of some sort of non-galling super lube formulated for stainless steel. It ran for about a 100 rounds and seized-up so tight it had to be beat apart with a mallet.
Now keep in mind all slide and frame sets are not created equal. They differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from the same manufacturer. Heat-treats vary from lot to lot. So bottom line is since it worked on this set don’t necessarily mean it’s going to work on the next set.
I have experimented with welding grossly sloppy slide to frame fits on stainless frames by using 4130 welding wire to build-up the frame rails and re-machine. This will put a hard layer of about .005 on the sides of the frame rail. I fit them-up fairly snug and everything seemed to workout fine for a 100 round test fire. I’m going to have to run it a few thousand before I have complete confidence in the method, I’ll let you know if I run into trouble.
Some grades of stainless are very difficult to machine. Some types like the 400 series used in gun making are free machining, which means the steel cuts very nice and yields a nice finish. 400 series is also magnetic and heat-treatable. Some other grades seem to tear and smear rather than cut freely.
Steel hardness is sometimes a little confusing when speaking of machine ability. With all things being equal the harder steel will be more difficult to machine, but there are softer metals like some grades of stainless and titanium’s that are way more difficult to machine than a harder grade of free machining steel.
Below is a previous post were I ramble on about steel in general that may shed more light on the subject if you have not yet read them. "Why your stainless rust"
http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000001.html
Stainless steels also hold the heat very well and it takes more BTU’s to get them hot.
On the other extreme aluminum will heat-up faster than any other metal and also cool down faster. A good example of this is my crab steamers used for steaming seafood. On the same burner the stainless pot will take longer to bring-up to a boil and start producing steam than the aluminum pot. The aluminum pot will heat-up faster and boil but also sheds its heat faster.
If I were to build the ultimate 1911 it would be in blued steel not stainless and industrial hard chromed.
But on the other hand I also really like the Colt stainless. It machines and polishes beautifully. One day I’m going to build me one so I have one of each.
Pay your money and take your pick, Metal Smith
[This message has been edited by Metal Smith (edited 06-11-2001).]
Yes stainless steel does have a bad reputation for galling and machining. Smearing of the steel is a good description as noted above when tolerances are to tight when rubbed together with friction. For example if the slide and frame are fit to tight the parts may gall and bind. If a few thousandths of clearance is left galling should not be a problem.
I have read on this forum that some smith can fit slides & frames snug and lap them smooth with good results. I think this is a gamble. I seen one nice stainless slide to frame tightened in the traditional squeeze & peen method and lapped so smooth if felt like it was running on KY. I’d a bet a weeks pay it would never gall.
It was lubed with a generous amount of some sort of non-galling super lube formulated for stainless steel. It ran for about a 100 rounds and seized-up so tight it had to be beat apart with a mallet.
Now keep in mind all slide and frame sets are not created equal. They differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from the same manufacturer. Heat-treats vary from lot to lot. So bottom line is since it worked on this set don’t necessarily mean it’s going to work on the next set.
I have experimented with welding grossly sloppy slide to frame fits on stainless frames by using 4130 welding wire to build-up the frame rails and re-machine. This will put a hard layer of about .005 on the sides of the frame rail. I fit them-up fairly snug and everything seemed to workout fine for a 100 round test fire. I’m going to have to run it a few thousand before I have complete confidence in the method, I’ll let you know if I run into trouble.
Some grades of stainless are very difficult to machine. Some types like the 400 series used in gun making are free machining, which means the steel cuts very nice and yields a nice finish. 400 series is also magnetic and heat-treatable. Some other grades seem to tear and smear rather than cut freely.
Steel hardness is sometimes a little confusing when speaking of machine ability. With all things being equal the harder steel will be more difficult to machine, but there are softer metals like some grades of stainless and titanium’s that are way more difficult to machine than a harder grade of free machining steel.
Below is a previous post were I ramble on about steel in general that may shed more light on the subject if you have not yet read them. "Why your stainless rust"
http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000001.html
Stainless steels also hold the heat very well and it takes more BTU’s to get them hot.
On the other extreme aluminum will heat-up faster than any other metal and also cool down faster. A good example of this is my crab steamers used for steaming seafood. On the same burner the stainless pot will take longer to bring-up to a boil and start producing steam than the aluminum pot. The aluminum pot will heat-up faster and boil but also sheds its heat faster.
If I were to build the ultimate 1911 it would be in blued steel not stainless and industrial hard chromed.
But on the other hand I also really like the Colt stainless. It machines and polishes beautifully. One day I’m going to build me one so I have one of each.
Pay your money and take your pick, Metal Smith
[This message has been edited by Metal Smith (edited 06-11-2001).]
A follow up question for you, since you seem to know your metallurgy pretty well. Does stainless only gall when in moving contact with more stainless, ie. stainless frame and slide, or will it gall when moving against carbon steel as well. I'm thinking about building up a bullseye gun (very tight fit) on a stainless frame with blued slide so is galling something I should worry about? Thanks!
Patrick
Patrick
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Worked on a ss STI slide and frame last night it gauled 3 times so far just fitting it up.
(yes we are going for a tigth fit)
to answer your question, worked on a ss colt frame gun with a blue slide and it was a target gun, nice and smooth for the first 3 shots, at which point we had to take it apart and loosen it up. (with a SOFT BIG hammer)
geo ><>
Fred Kart said SS is great for pots and pans!
on the subject as most gun parts are 400 ser ss. if you squib a barrel and shoot one behind it the barrel splits from end to end in ss and just rings in carbon. SS bottom lugs are more prone to seporate from the barrel. 17-4ph for firing pins works great!
Jewel uses 420 ss for there AR action and they are hard, 53 rc iirc. 416 (as pete menitoned free machineing with the addation of sulfer I think?) tops out around 42 rc.
For me, 4340 caspian slide, and hard chrome.
Hope this helps
(yes we are going for a tigth fit)
to answer your question, worked on a ss colt frame gun with a blue slide and it was a target gun, nice and smooth for the first 3 shots, at which point we had to take it apart and loosen it up. (with a SOFT BIG hammer)
geo ><>
Fred Kart said SS is great for pots and pans!
on the subject as most gun parts are 400 ser ss. if you squib a barrel and shoot one behind it the barrel splits from end to end in ss and just rings in carbon. SS bottom lugs are more prone to seporate from the barrel. 17-4ph for firing pins works great!
Jewel uses 420 ss for there AR action and they are hard, 53 rc iirc. 416 (as pete menitoned free machineing with the addation of sulfer I think?) tops out around 42 rc.
For me, 4340 caspian slide, and hard chrome.
Hope this helps
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259 Posts
I have a Caspian stainless frame mated to a Caspian carbon steel slide in a bullseye gun with very tight slide to frame fit, built by Ed Masaki. I have over 30,000 rounds thru the gun with no galling. I have had to slightly tighten up the slide/frame fit twice, as I don't want the gun to have any noticeable looseness at all. I have a second bullseye gun with the same SS frame and carbon slide as the first. Is very tight and was built by Buddy Chapman. Have about 1,500 rounds thru it with no galling. More kudos for Caspian.
[This message has been edited by Slo cat (edited 06-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Slo cat (edited 06-12-2001).]
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2,057 Posts
funny day
Just got off the phone with a gunsmith, he was squeezing a slide to frame (not my preference) and needed a slide. Seems his ss slide cracked from the squeez, not that carbon slided do not.
and this http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000315.html
geo ><>
Just got off the phone with a gunsmith, he was squeezing a slide to frame (not my preference) and needed a slide. Seems his ss slide cracked from the squeez, not that carbon slided do not.
and this http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000315.html
geo ><>
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911 Posts
Maybe someone can correct me if I'll wrong but I think Caspian used 17-4 stainless at one time for thier frames and it is some TOUGH STUFF to machine, should be great for a frame. I'm not sure what they use now, Pete
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