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Considering changing my screen name.

What if they shoot a polymer gun, still REAL?



P.S. Seen the video, got into argument about it here, not going there again.
I'm perfectly willing to listen if you'd like to discuss it privately without getting into an argument :) I'm new here so I don't really know if there's a DM function yet.
 

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If your only reason for being a gun guy is training for combat or the zombie apocalypse, then the 1911 doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Even then I can find problems with that logic. When I watch these guys on YouTube training and practicing like they're with SEAL Team Six, only to realize they're a civilian I have to scratch my head and wonder what they really think is going to happen in their life that they need to be as razor-sharp as a real Operator. 99% of us will never get into an altercation requiring that we draw a firearm in anger, and those who do are going to be more than able to handle it with a nine-shot .45ACP handgun. At least, if it isn't enough gun then as a civvie you're in WAY over your head to begin with. Everyone is so infatuated with magazine capacity these days, as if that's the most important attribute to have in your weapon. It's not. Being able to shoot it fast and well is. The only reason why I rarely carry a 1911 these days is because I can't deal with the weight of a full-sized handgun on my hip all day anymore, not because I think nine rounds isn't enough firepower.
 

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Considering changing my screen name.

What if they shoot a polymer gun, still REAL?



P.S. Seen the video, got into argument about it here, not going there again.
Absolutely you're a REAL SPORT regardless what you shoot if you're shooting for sport. With Polymer you must declare you are shooting for Sport before you begin or it will be assumed you are training for a Zombie Apocalypse. If you get confused feel free to reach out for the Real Sport Rule book. I'm pretty sure I can make up something.
 

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I'm perfectly willing to listen if you'd like to discuss it privately without getting into an argument :) I'm new here so I don't really know if there's a DM function yet.
I don't do well with not getting into the arguments :).

I took an exception to "vs 2011" feel that it gave me because I thought that everything that extended to 1911s these days also extended to 2011s. More so, I think it is 2011s that are pushing the envelope, further development, and future of the overall 1911/2011 platform (I hate this word). Somebody here, don't remember who, disagreed and we went back and forth for a bit. The usual internet stuff.

Rev I think he was replying to my post. See REAL SPORT
I think he was replying to my P.S. Or B.S. :)

I am relieved about the REAL SPORT although I think that a poly guy competing against all-steel field should be called an UNREAL SPORT
 
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Everyone is so infatuated with magazine capacity these days, as if that's the most important attribute to have in your weapon. It's not. Being able to shoot it fast and well is.
Human psychology: almost every time I leave my house with a J-frame, my brain reminds me that the largest ammo expenditure in Tom Givens' dataset was 11 rounds, and 4% of shootings went past 15 yards...
 

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Human psychology: almost every time I leave my house with a J-frame, my brain reminds me that the largest ammo expenditure in Tom Givens' dataset was 11 rounds, and 4% of shootings went past 15 yards...
Proponents of large ammo capacity will always point to some rare example of a large-volume gunfight as evidence that you "may" need a lot of rounds. The truth is I could do the same and find examples "proving" that a 9mm doesn't provide enough stopping power as well. So where does that leave us? Carrying large-capacity hand cannons? Personally I don't care what people choose to carry, but they need to stop acting like anyone who isn't carrying the equivalent of a full box of ammo on their belt isn't taking their safety seriously.
 

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I first gun was 1911, and my latest purchase was a 1911, in between I’ve got some “tools” from HK, and while consider “premium tools” they’re just tools.
If I’m not doing a physical activities, I prefer the 1911. It’s slim and with a proper holster I don’t feel the extra weight. I believe that the first 4 rounds are matter the most, and slow and heavy works better in self defence than light and fast. Always carry an extra mag, so I can’t see a situation that I’ll run out of ammo. Plastic guns are great and inexpensive, and they have their place, but I don’t have the desire to shoot them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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The truth is I could do the same and find examples "proving" that a 9mm doesn't provide enough stopping power as well.
You mean, you know of a case when somebody didn't go down to a 9 but did to a 45?



:) jk


Seriously, it is a matter of individual psychology and attitude to life in general. Dunno how many people have a disability or earthquake insurance but I do, both. Prudent or an overkill? Guns are kind of insurance policy too, no?

To the question if you should carry something that gets you through 90% of already unlikely events, or something with 16 rounds and an optic my answer is yes.
 

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Proponents of large ammo capacity will always point to some rare example of a large-volume gunfight as evidence that you "may" need a lot of rounds. The truth is I could do the same and find examples "proving" that a 9mm doesn't provide enough stopping power as well. So where does that leave us? Carrying large-capacity hand cannons? Personally I don't care what people choose to carry, but they need to stop acting like anyone who isn't carrying the equivalent of a full box of ammo on their belt isn't taking their safety seriously.
FtMP, I expect that if I've fired 5rds, it's either all over and/or I should be running away. That written, I recently started carrying a 2nd spare magazine: so 24rds of .45ACP ... uhhhh ... more than a full box. Considering that perhaps 3% are carrying at all: somebody with their J-frame .38spl is already in the top 5% of serious. And always glad to have a top-5%er on my side when things get hot: it seems ill-advised for us to castigate each other when we may need one anothers' help one day.
 

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The 1911 is an amazing handgun, and capable of excellent accuracy. I have been shooting 1911 and STI 2011 guns for over 40 years in competitive shooting, and one major reason why these guns are so popular is they have the capability of having an excellent trigger......a great trigger that has minimal take-up, no creep, no overtravel, and a light and clean trigger pull with a fast reset allows fast and accurate shooting.....

The US military and most law enforcement agencies went with high capacity pistols...... The Beretta 92 for the military, and various Glock, H&K, Sig (P226), and S&W M&P models. Most LE agencies have pistols chambered for 9mm, but advancements in powder has helped push the 9mm to very respectable velocities, and good JHP bullets can make the .355" diameter more lethal since they offer good expansion.

When I carry concealed, I have an STI 2011 .38 super with hot loads, use Speer Gold Dot bullets, and the muzzle velocity and energy is like shooting a low end .357 magnum cartridge.
I carry 17+1 rounds in the gun and use a flush fit 126 mm magazine, and a spare 140mm mag that holds 20 rounds.

I prefer the .38 super as a self defense round, my guns are extremely reliable with my handloads, and as long as I do my part, it is doubtful I will need to reload.... However, it is never a bad idea to have too much ammo in a gunfight.....
 

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I think its a case of run what you brung each person and each situation is different, there are times I have a 25 and times I only have a knife (rule 9 ) sometimes only a cane . Its more mindset than anything else.
 

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Even then I can find problems with that logic. When I watch these guys on YouTube training and practicing like they're with SEAL Team Six, only to realize they're a civilian I have to scratch my head and wonder what they really think is going to happen in their life that they need to be as razor-sharp as a real Operator. 99% of us will never get into an altercation requiring that we draw a firearm in anger, and those who do are going to be more than able to handle it with a nine-shot .45ACP handgun. At least, if it isn't enough gun then as a civvie you're in WAY over your head to begin with. Everyone is so infatuated with magazine capacity these days, as if that's the most important attribute to have in your weapon. It's not. Being able to shoot it fast and well is. The only reason why I rarely carry a 1911 these days is because I can't deal with the weight of a full-sized handgun on my hip all day anymore, not because I think nine rounds isn't enough firepower.
Todays training emphasizes volume of fire. Trainers are teaching people to shoot, shoot fast, and keep shooting until the threat is down.

I retired from being a Paramedic in 2000, and even during my career... Of the officer involved shootings I attended over 16 years in the field, with one exception, the LEAST number of times someone was shot by a cop was 6, and the most was 32. Cops dump rounds fast, and a LOT of them... And this has been going on for a LONG time. This crap of only 4-5 rounds is about 30+ years out of date (for law enforcement at least). This is how they train.

And civilian trainers are teaching the same thing. So considering that, the 1911 is far from ideal for today's training. It's also larger, heavier, and more expensive. Therefore, it's really not a great choice. Doesn't mean it won't work for you (I still carry mine)...I'm just saying it's not the logical choice anymore.
 

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the LEAST number of times someone was shot by a cop was 6, and the most was 32
One officer engagement between 6 and 32 shots, or is this multiple officers engaging the subject? Im sure your number will come down when you break it down by single officer.

When we go through firerams training, yes you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. That doesn't mean shoot as many times as you can as fast as you can. Most of that is to teach recoil management and to not get stuck in the Mozambique mindset...shoot three times and assess. We often shoot multiple round counts in training and really have never exceeded 6 round strings center mass or head. I carry a 1911 for duty and none of the drills and reality-based trainings we do have ever shown that firearm to be a handicap. Is it heavier? Yeah, but hardly. Is it more comfortable to carry on a duty belt, absolutely. I'm more accurate with that firearm than our originally issued m&p's or glocks and I get better hits where i need them. Doesn't make it a bad choice at all to me
 

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One officer engagement between 6 and 32 shots, or is this multiple officers engaging the subject? Im sure your number will come down when you break it down by single officer.
Both of those numbers were for single officer shootings. Average was 6-8 shots with one or two that were in the engine room. The funny part is, when there are multiple cops, often the hit count is pretty much the same, but more rounds fired.

The 32 was an extreme... Swat officer rolled around a corner to find himself facing a perp with a gun pointed at his face. He just instinctively dumped a full mag from his MP5 into the perp's face....and then the bastid immediately waved me in to try to pick up the pieces (I was the swat team medic)... what a mess that was.

On the other end was a CHP motorcycle officer who only fired two shots through the windshield of a car trying to run him down. Two shots from his S&W 4005, one through the left eye, the other through the left carotid artery... Most impressive bit of combat shooting I ever saw. Needless to say, all I did was declare that one DRT.
 

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There's one thing that often gets overlooked in this 'capacity' for carry debate and the emphasis given in 'training' to high volumes of fire...... the true, potential consequences of those volleys. You see it in law enforcement shootings, and you see it in classes and certainly in competition.... fire, fire, fire and fire some more - till you 'neutralize' the threat. The problem is, you won't be so steady or collected during the real thing, so your hits will not all be in the 'A" zone. If your focus is on fire and fire some more, where will all that lead end up?

While I have no formal 'evidence', as internet sleuths often require, I do have empirical data from nearly 4 decades of shooting, competing, training, etc. In my early days, folks seemed more disciplined with their fire and more focused on accuracy. Over time, as firearms trends shifted to more and more rounds, attitudes seemed to skew toward 'sloppy'. I watch bodycam footage of recent police shootings and cringe at the numbers of rounds expended. All of those rounds eventually end up 'somewhere'. It goes to show just how rare these instances are, because with so many rounds flying, the collateral damage would be greater if these shootings were truly that common.

We are ultimately responsible for every single round we fire. Unless you're storming a pillbox, perhaps more focus should be placed on developing a mindset of deliberate fire vs. reliance on extra rounds. I'll say this, should I survive it, if I'm 'collateral' damage from someone else's 'defensive' shooting, say a block or two away, I will be one POd individual!!!! (Another reason why the popular use of 'rifles' for home defense gives me pause. Windows, siding and drywall don't work too well as armor plating!..... and not everyone can be counted upon to be selective in the proper ammunition choice.) All this to say, think it through ahead of time, and perhaps we should practice as if we 'were' using a six shot revolver - rather than a belt-fed piece of hardware.
 

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Excellent post havanajim.
 

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I guess im curious what LE drills or training scenarios are included that are "shoot, shoot, shoot some more" that aren't coming from youtube operators lol
 

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FtMP, I expect that if I've fired 5rds, it's either all over and/or I should be running away. That written, I recently started carrying a 2nd spare magazine: so 24rds of .45ACP ... uhhhh ... more than a full box. Considering that perhaps 3% are carrying at all: somebody with their J-frame .38spl is already in the top 5% of serious. And always glad to have a top-5%er on my side when things get hot: it seems ill-advised for us to castigate each other when we may need one anothers' help one day.
3% carrying would be a very high number. I suspect the real number is below 1%.

IMHO anyone who carries a magazine fed handgun and doesn't carry a spare mag is a fool. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
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