[CastleBravo]

My favorite pistol is my Colt Delta Elite. It is a great piece of work, and something that I have genuine pride of ownership in. Box-stock and used, it was a fine piece. With some minor customizing it is approaching handgun nirvana. It looks good, feels good, and just plain makes me glad to have a genuine Colt.

So what, exactly, happened to Colt? I have handled 1991A1 pistols and they are an abortion of a firearm: loose, ugly, and full of cheap plastic parts... but almost as much money at the gun store as a Kimber Custom that is tighter, better finished, and superior in every way. Functional? Maybe. Alot of people have had OK 1991A1 pistols. But how can you sell something that on the face of it is *cheap* (but *not* inexpensive... at least not in any gun store I've seen) and wonder why your business is evaporating?

Colt made the very, very nice XS pistols for, what, one year? As soon as they have a comparable product with Kimber and SA they promptly... dumb it down to the plastic-laden XSE and the prices (at least at the gun stores I've seen) remain sky-high! How did this come to pass? Why did Colt have to do this, but SA hasn't un-"loaded" their loaded models -- they IMPROVED them for 2001! Kimber didn't take all the extended thumb safties and aluminum match triggers of their custom line and charge consumers the same price, did they?

No more Python. Enough said.

Compare what SA and Kimber offer in terms of product variety, quality and price to what Colt has now and tell me that they are not being beaten like a red-headed stepchild by their competition.

Who here knows how this horrible state came to pass? I understand that Colt is under new management now and I get the feeling that things are slowly turning around... but Colt started the new millenium in a serious hole. What happened between say 1990 and 1999 that caused Colt to go from top notch to barely alive?



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CastleBravo
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

 

[Redzone]

I believe Colt is not trying to sell guns. They just make them and they sell. And by that I mean that you are correct, they don't offer the selection and features of some of the others. I am of the opinion that Colt Custom Shop production is currently the backbone of Colt. And if these experts were to go away then Colt is lost. For example have you noticed how many special editions have been put out in the last two years? I will never buy anything but a Colt however. As I love the history and have all Colt 1911s in my collection. Some of which are shooters and 1991s with plastic triggers and extremely reliable. The best in the universe is a Colt 1911, 1911A1, Series 70, Series 80.

 

[CastleBravo]

If they just make them and they sell, then why are they in such crappy shape as a company? I'm sorry, but if Colt won't step up and deliver the goods, I'm sticking to my old Delta Elite and won't give them a dime.

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CastleBravo
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

 

[RickB]

Colt's success was built on selling arms to the government. From the Walker to the Gatling, SAA, BAR, Thompson, Ma Duce, M-16 (am I forgetting something?). When they started losing those contracts to Beretta, FN, Bushmaster, etc., they couldn't stay afloat on $900 Gold Cups and $1200 Peacemakers. I think your characterization of new Colts is way off. I have a Delta Elite, and agree that they are beautiful guns (and the '90's, when most DEs were made, are considered Colt's darkest days) , but the new XSE pistols look pretty good to me, too (and other than maybe the mainspring housing, don't see any plastic on them). Pricing is obviously different in different parts of the country, but I don't see that a XSE in the $700 range is such a bad deal compared to a comparably priced Kimber Classic or SA Loaded. I paid $450 for a new M1991A1, and again, compared to a $600-$700 Kimber or SA, it's a decent deal. I think Colt has gone through a period very much like that experienced by the U.S auto industry in the '80s (is it a coincidence that the UAW is involved in both?); they were both probably kept afloat by "buy American" sentiment. Colt, hopefully like Chrysler, will make a comeback; maybe not as a hare, but as one sleek, tanned, well-rested tortoise.

 

[CastleBravo]

Does Colt even still make XSEs? They aren't listed on their site anymore...

The XSE is (or was?) OK, but it's a cheaped-down version of the XS that you need to spend $200 on to get up to the level of a Kimber Custom that was the same or cheaper to begin with.

Getting a 1991A1 new for $450 is a decent deal, but the going rate is more like $550. With a new Kimber Custom running $600 for more features and better quality why should anyone go for the 1991A1? Why be loyal to a brand that isn't loyal to you? Check the prices at:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cgi

Look, I would MUCH rather buy a Colt if it would give me anything like the value its competitors provide. Colt CAN do it just fine -- they made the XS in '99, for goodness sake! -- so why won't they? For about $400 a 1991A1 would be a decent value, but for $550+ I'm seeing everywhere it's insulting.

We don't owe Colt a damn thing. If they want business, they have to earn it like everyone else did. The U.S. car companies nearly crapped out in the 1980s because they were selling crap cars and Toyota and Honda weren't. They were forced to straighten out their act when people ran away by the hundreds of thousands to buy an Accord or Camry because... they were BETTER. The American auto industry adapted (more or less) and now there are lots of American cars that are actually a better value than a $20,000 Accord.

This irritates me because I REALLY don't want Colt to be second-string and limp along on their "Everything else is a copy" marketing BS for 10 or 20 years until they die. I own a Colt and would gladly give Colt oodles of my money if they would only put out a product even CLOSE to worth the money.

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CastleBravo
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

 

[BB]

The new (since CNC equip.) 1991s are tight, and extreamly well made. FWIW, the 1911 was made to be loose. Target guns are made to be tight. I wouldn't want a tight gun in combat.

Whats wrong with plastic? My XS and AR15 both have plastic parts, and I've had no problems.

The XS will be back as soon as Colt gets a new supplier for the special parts. They had a "falling out" with the supplier of the XS parts, hence the XSE.

 

[James]

I have owned/used Colts built all during their so-called dark days and their latest 1991 offerings. I don't agree with your assessment of their product offerings.

If a fancy tricked out gun is what tickles your fancy, then I agree, a Colt may not be for you. BUT if you want a gun that you can take out of the box and use it like it was designed to be (as a defensive weapon) then you can't go wrong with a Colt.

I own Kimber and love them for competition. I can also take my $450 - $550 1991, Add a $20 aluminum trigger, stone the sear and hammer, tweak the sear spring, and love it just as much in competition. All of the extras are just that - extra. In reality, the fat beavertail, the extended thumb safety, the dovetailed front sight, the FL guiderod, and the fancy wood grips don't do anything for accuracy or reliability.

I would be willing to bet that most of us who drool over that tight Kimber slide fit don't shoot good enough to take advantage of it.

But this is good. I have had the oppoprtunity to own many nice Colts due to this line of thinking.

 

[SBLars]

BB,

What on the XS is plastic? I havent seen anything plastic on my XS GM. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[Black Pearl 45]

i always thought the whole reason for the introduction of the Colt 1991a1's were ....
1)to celebrate Colts 1911 anniversary, by selling a pistol that is more like a original 1911 than the guns being put out today
and maybe Most of all
2) to sell a cheaper basic gun for the total purpose of Customization, seeing how the popularity of custom guns jumped up in the past 10 years. i always figured colt could sell a lot more basic guns to the customizers and ipsc/idpa beginners than they could with a higher priced gold cup.

i had heard (RUMOR) that you could build up a better gun for less, than to buy a colt gold cup. (the customer thought being)... if a custom gun for the same price as gold cup works better, than why buy a higher priced gold cup?
and doesnt/didnt FBI HRT (or some other SWAT LEO) use customized colt 1991s ?

1911 prices in SoCal as of today --Chuck daly EFS $399, colt 1991 $499, kimber CD2 $769

 

[RUSSEL213]

i have to agree with the fact that it depends on what you want. when i bought my colt 1991A1, i wanted a no frills combat weapon, no fancy trigger, no fancy hammer and no fancy finish that i will scratch up carrying on duty anyway.

i love shooting the kimbers, and the springfields, and the colt 70 series gold cups, but my "plastic trigger and mainspring housing" colt 1991A1 has never failed, it shoots better than i can, and has never jammed. its looser, bacause it was made to be combat acurate, not compitition accurate.

i can't find anything wrong with mine, other than i put wood grips and night sights on it.

i do hope that colt starts making more 1911's though, next year when i get to buy another gun, i want either a 70 series colt, or hopefully something new from the company

by the way, i paid 450.00 for my first 91A1 in 1998, i saw one at a gun show for 750.00, i couldn't help but laugh!

russel the cop

 

[BB]

The XS mainspring housing is plastic.

 

[CastleBravo]

Maybe I'm not being clear here. Basic is fine. Not tight is fine, too. Basic and not tight -- but charged as much as full-featured and tight -- is NOT fine. THAT is why people see a NORMAL price for a 1991A1 at $550 and feel it is a rip-off, and buy a $600 Kimber Custom instead.

The bottom line is VALUE, folks. Basic and inexpensive is good. An EAA Witness is basic, but costs about $300 and is functional, so it is a good value. Expensive but really, really nice is a good value too. A $3,000 handmade custom 1911 costs tons of money, but you get a handmade, custom pistol. Spending $550 for something that on the face of it gives me ALOT less than a $600 item is bad math:

For $50 you get:
+Tighter tolerances
+Better finish
+Better sights
+Better grips
+Extended thumb safety
+Beavertail grip safety
+Aluminum match trigger
+Front cocking serrations
-Doesn't say "Colt" on it anywhere

Now, I'm glad to hear that the 1991A1 has been improved and tightened up with CNC parts. Since alot of the high prices are probably just artificial hikes due to Colt's "inevitable doom" that never seems to happen, if start seeing these CNC 1991A1s for closer to the $400 mark then I'd start to see things in a very different light.

Likewise, if the genuine XS re-appears within say $100 of a Kimber Custom I'd jump on one with both feet. I WANT Colt to be competative again, but with the combination of prices and features out there RIGHT NOW they aren't. I hope everyone is right & things are looking up.


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CastleBravo
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

[This message has been edited by CastleBravo (edited 04-18-2001).]

 

[James]

I see what you are saying BUT keep in mind that the pricing problem may be (a lot of it IS) the dealers trying to take advantage of the so called shortage of Colts or the supposed discontinuance of the civilian Colt models. Also, all of those that believed it created a huge demand for the Colts that were available. Before the scare, there were $375 1991s everywhere and Kimbers were in the $550 - $600 range even then.

I agree that a Kimber is a "better value" for the features it has (I have typed this several times before) simply because to get them you would have to have extra parts installed to have the same thing on the 1991. My opinion is that most of those changes that everybody thinks are necessary are cosmetic.

Your OPINION is just as valid as mine but I am not sold yet.

[This message has been edited by James P (edited 04-18-2001).]

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

Originally posted by SBLars:
BB,

What on the XS is plastic? I havent seen anything plastic on my XS GM. Maybe I am missing something.

The mainsrping housing on the XS, the XSE, the 1991's and ALL the Kimber's except the Super Match (which has the mag well guide) are plastic.

The 1991's and Defender's add a plastic trigger to that count.

[This message has been edited by FirearmsPlus.FL (edited 04-20-2001).]

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

First off, we sell Kimber's and Colts. I think both make excellent guns, and carry a Colt Defender. (Kimber was a year behind Colt there, waiting until it was a huge success before copying it.)
Colt's owner now is a different owner than ~94-95. (I think that's when Zilkha took over?) The guns since then have been tighter, better made than most of them since the 70's.
The XSE's are less of a gun features wise than the XS. But the features aren't much different. I liked the XS beavertail, can't stand the XSE or the Kimber's. The safety's aren't much of a difference. The sights on all three guns are not to my liking.
The cost is indeed Colt's, they did a large price increase end of last year/ beginning of this year. This means an XSE Colt is similar in price to the Kimber Stainless. The Defender is cheaper than the Ultra Carry Stainless.
The 1991's don't have all the features, and run ~75 less than a Kimber Custom. That comes down to what you're looking for out of the gun though.

 

[FirearmsPlus.FL]

Originally posted by BB:
The XS will be back as soon as Colt gets a new supplier for the special parts. They had a "falling out" with the supplier of the XS parts, hence the XSE.

My joke for a while was "it'll be back as soon as they get someone who will give them parts without getting paid"
Colt was in bankruptcy until 94 IIRC, and even if the company is having financial trouble, they are doing better than then
They tried to buy Giat/FN/Browning/USRA(Winchester) n order to get the military contracts in a round about way. (Also why they did buy SACO and tried to buy HK) They failed (selling SACO)
Now, I think we'll see Colt start to "get back to" their consumer sales.

 

[CastleBravo]

I wouldn't pretend that I'm peddling anything but an opinion

Now, for $375 I'd be the biggest 1991A1 fan on the earth. I'd be evil and keep it bone stock, except for having a Bar-Sto Target Match barrel fitted and giving it a trigger job (with the stock plastic trigger yet!). Since this is at least 95% of the accuracy potential of the gun anyway (slide-to-frame probably giving you 5%) you'd be able to shoot rings around just about everything on earth for small change. Talk about a "stealth bomber"... heh heh heh.


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CastleBravo
The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/index.html

[This message has been edited by CastleBravo (edited 04-18-2001).]

 

[BB]

Originally posted by CastleBravo:
Now, for $375 I'd be the biggest 1991A1 fan on the earth.

Not from a Union shop in the USA, aint gonna happen.

 

[HET]

I believe they are targeting the civilian consumers because the qualified 6 models for California. http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/certlist.htm
I don’t think they would waste the money if they didn’t want to sell to the common Joe.


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Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."
-Alexander Hamilton

 

[SBLars]

Well if the mainspring housing is plastic on the XS, I sure can't tell, it looks and feels like metal to me. Maybe if it was flat instead of grooved I would be able to tell.