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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This video of police taking down a rapist during an attack demonstrates a couple of things:

1. Why you need more than 10 rounds, unlike what liberals say. The police fired 11 rounds. It took the guy a while to go down.

2. Shot placement counts. I don't know how many rounds actually hit this guy, but if all 11 rounds of 9mm (I assume because the LEO had a Glock) hit the guy, I'm selling all my 9s tomorrow.

Here's the link.

Oh, and I was just joking about selling my 9s. The video shows how little effect there was on the guy. Sort of renders all the discussions over the years about a "one shot stop" a waste of time.
 

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Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
 

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My local 2,000 man PD shoots 100 rounds per officer, per year. Anything more than that is on the individual officer.

Timers vs switches. When there is a hostage and the hostage taker has a gun, timer shots are of no use.

If you're reading this and haven't taken at least 1 day of instruction from a qualified instructor in the past year, you're failing your loved ones who depend on you.
 

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Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
Excellent and right on the money.
 

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A few days ago in Florida a homeowner drove off several attackers with an AR-15. The one she actually shot still managed to run 200 yards before collapsing. Looking at this video it looks to me like the majority of the hits were peripheral judging by his reaction. Bullets aren't magic... they have to hit or disrupt something vital to do their job. Passing right though fatty tissue doesn't do anything except hurt like a bee sting.

Something also to keep in mind regarding double-stack defense guns... I suspect most gun carriers use the large capacity as an excuse to not have to carry a spare mag. But when the balloon goes up and you're suddenly excited and scared you're probably going to keep shooting until the gun stops running... meaning you're now out of ammo. At least with a single-stack you're more likely to carry a spare mag and thus not waste your entire complement of ammo on a single panicked burst of gunfire.
 

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Interesting concept but I'll pass. Same reason as to why I won't carry a two-shot Derringer because it encourages making each round count.

No thanks.
 

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The point I'm making is... carry a spare mag even if your piece holds 20 rounds. Most people don't.
 

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Shooting in unfavorable conditions -- darkness, moving BG, more than one BG, being just awakened from deep sleep by unusual noise, no corrective/range eyewear (due to only seconds available for SD response), no hearing protection, etc. -- does not always facilitate one's best marksmanship skills.

Even a person skilled at range condition marksmanship, may not always hit center-mass under time/place conditions oftentimes chosen by the BG(s).

More rounds might well be needed under such conditions. And some BGs, especially those amped up on drugs, can "take" a lot of punishment before abandoning an assault.
 

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What difference does it make?

If your skills and equipment, not to mention luck. If they are up to the task, then you should likely prevail. This is pretty well understood. Now if you are going to introduce other factors into the equation. Things like legislators restricting the options that people have with which to defend themselves. Then you are introducing a whole new dynamic into the situation.

This is precisely why the founding fathers of our nation made the determination from the get go that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed". You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.
 

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I count twelve shots before he goes down?? Then the two insurance shots.

The attacker is large framed, obviously determined, and task oriented. Placing enough shots on him center mass to interrupt the blood flow to his brain is going to take a bit. Never trust one or two shots no matter what caliber you carry.

I agree completely with dsk about carrying a spare magazine. No matter the capacity of your firearm. Over ninety percent of pistol stoppages can be fixed with a new magazine being inserted. So a spare not only allows insurance ammo but lets you fix almost all stoppages.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The point I'm making is... carry a spare mag even if your piece holds 20 rounds. Most people don't.
I always carry a spare mag or two. Not because I might need the ammo. I do it because the magazine is the weakest link in the semi-auto functionality chain. If the mag fails at the wrong time, I want to be able to go to another one pronto.
 

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^^^
^^^

The excellent points made in multiple preceeding points as to the functional/reliability-support benefits of carrying a spare magazine (at least one) are likely as important, or maybe more important, than the capability need for more rounds (if the latter should be required).

Two different subjects, but both point towards the same best practice answer.

I'll guess that we're all in agreement on the premium importance of shot placement, but unless someone is absolutely confident in making really precise center-mass hits no matter what the circumstances might be, then there is good reason to have more capacity than the leftist gun-ban types:barf: propose as "reasonable". And there's no harm in choosing the most effective cartridge/caliber that we feel comfortable with, all things considered... whether that choice be 9mm, .45acp, 10mm, etc., or harder-hitting AR chamberings.
 

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Agree with the comments about shoot what you hit at - the most important thing (and gun that works of course :)). Too much emphasis on maxing-out-speed is self defeating imo. Most SD drills are "stylized", bad guys aren't going to stand at attention in front of you while you do a Bill Drill into their center mass, and even if they do, a couple of hundred's of a second differences in split times is not going to be the key determinate of the outcome.

That said, if you can shoot a big powerful round on top of the above, it is a plus - how much is arguable and of course we've argued it ad infinitum :).

That vid is very illustrative. The cop isn't far away, he is shooting at a reasonable speed but not maxing out, he had multiple hits (how many I can't tell)...Note the SB isn't standing up at attention like a target at the range, he is turning sideways, bending over and constantly moving. Much different than paper-punching where you can go nuts maxing out with speed. And even with this cop putting well skilled control fire on the SB he likely isn't hitting the 8" idpa circle with every round (and can't tell if he even it the 8" "circle" once), it is a much different dynamic, and why a bigger and more powerful round plays a part in this regard.

Accuracy, potent round, good speed...The first far outweighs the other two. I'm glad IDPA is using an 8" CM target circle these days to emphasis the importance on accuracy (but again it is stylized so it has limits in real life)...Speed is actually the variable which you can modulate most (within reason) to achieve accuracy with a potent round.

MO of course, but along the lines of how I choose my gun's, ammo, gear, and training.
 

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On a lighter note, the vid reminds me of the original black and white King Kong movie, ca. 1933, where they shoot ton's of small arm's fire at Kong with little effect. Amazing. FBI might go back to 10MM after seeing this vid ;-).
 

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This video of police taking down a rapist during an attack demonstrates a couple of things:

1. Why you need more than 10 rounds, unlike what liberals say. The police fired 11 rounds. It took the guy a while to go down.

2. Shot placement counts. I don't know how many rounds actually hit this guy, but if all 11 rounds of 9mm (I assume because the LEO had a Glock) hit the guy, I'm selling all my 9s tomorrow.

Here's the link.

Oh, and I was just joking about selling my 9s. The video shows how little effect there was on the guy. Sort of renders all the discussions over the years about a "one shot stop" a waste of time.
Even with an 8 round magazine, my .45 Government Model can only manage nine rounds, including one "up the spout."

But they're nine bad ass rounds.
 

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Also, big shout-out to the Cop, great job, looks to me he hit the animal several times in the torso (based on the body movements - but just guessing). Ether way he got the job done without anymore damage to the women...He waited as long as he could until the animal started pistol wiping the women. Hope the animal rot's in you know where.
 

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Where you hit them is FAR more important than what caliber you used or how many rounds your mag can hold. Too many people today worry endlessly about caliber and bullet style and mag capacity when they really just need to learn to place a round where it will do the most damage.
^^This^^

A couple large rounds on-target are far more effective than spraying rounds towards the target from a mini-caliber, large-capacity fire hose.
 

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^^This^^

A couple large rounds on-target are far more effective than spraying rounds towards the target from a mini-caliber, large-capacity fire hose.
Agreed. My best friend was an Arkansas State Trooper years ago in Little Rock, and responded to a call involving a crazy. He and his partner were shooting .357 mags at the time, and the axe-wielding crazy on PCP threatened them after several commands to cease and desist. The perp absorbed 17 rounds of .357 as if it made no difference, at which point my best friend used a 12 ga. with 00 buck to end the encounter. Not germane in ALL cases, but demonstrates that amount of energy delivered matters greatly.
 

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I think Cleveland PD et al needs to practice the Mozambique Drill. I do just that each week at ranges out to 25-yards, which is the max available.
 
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