[AUG]

Hey Terry those must have been Kimber spec frames. No big deal for Je*i*ho they will just resale them to Kimber. I agree with you about the hard chrome vs. stainless. Personally I hate stainless. I am glad Wilson's is more concerned with quality that profitt margin. I have had a wonderful expierence with my Wilson pistol and because of that I will be a repeat customer sometime in the future. I just wish there was a little more action in the Wilson forum but as you have pointed out before when there is nothing to complain about people usually don't have much to say (those are my words not a quote).

Later

 

[Tom Nowicki]

I'm also glad that Wilson is concerned with quality. Kinda makes you wonder about them Kimbers, huh?

Tom

 

[PT-Partners]

Tom

There is absolutely NO wonder about the ubiquious Kimber.

I mean that in all connotations of the word.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

 

[tetley]

So what's wrong with the frames? Improper heat treating? Holes misaligned? You'd think with CNC manufacturing, everything would be perfect.

 

[tex]

I'm sure that no other factory prod. company has EVER had a bad batch of frames. not. There must be some reason wilson picked kimber to begin with.
I don't have any prob. with picking out the problems that kimber has, but everyother company has them also, even les? yep. The only differnce is a 3500.00 dollar les problem and a 2500.00 dollar kimber problem.
ok, lets see who jumps on me now. LOL
And no one thinks higher of wilson than I do, I lived up there for 20 years.

 

[strider]

With all due respect.


Kimber makes 30,000+++ guns a year and is a prime manufacturer of frames.
Wilson, buys frames and slides and who knows what else from Kimber. Wilson builds maybe a couple thousand a year, if that.

How is this a threat to Kimber or their market share? IMO if anything, Wilson using Kimber components is a positive for Kimber by any measure. What could Kimber possibly gain by upsetting Wilson?

If you want a conspiracy theory, how about this, which has NO basis in fact that I am aware of:

Wilson cannot keep up with demand. Saying they rejected frames from their supplier for QC reasons makes it look like they have extremely high standards. It also gives Wilson a convenient excuse, which blames someone else, for customers waiting for pistols.

Who knows?

 

[AUG]

Kimber does not make the frames and slides. From what I understand they buy them from the supplier that Wilson, Nowlin and Chip McCormick use, Jericho. Jericho makes them to each companies specs.

read what Dane says in this post http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000453.html



[This message has been edited by AUG (edited 09-29-2000).]

 

[PT-Partners]

Stider

All I know is now all of the stainless guns on order are now blue with hard chrome.

Second. When demand outstrips supply can be what you said but it can also mean you are a success and don't want to lower standards to meet a demand (make a buck). That would also kill your business in the long run. Are you a take the money and run company or do you intend to be around a while.

By the 1998 Shooting industry Production reports only 980 Wilsons for that year. The 1999 demand has far exceeded that available supply. Expect an increase in building by maybe 100 to 200 more if you hire more.

How big is the shop? How many man hours does it take to built each gun? Figure this. Average gunsmith work at least 6.5 to 7 hours hours a day (lunch, break or two). 22 work days a month. 12 months a year times the size of the shop. How many working on the guns.

Call and find out. Divide that by the number of guns a year (980) and you have an approximate time each gunsmith spends building a gun.

There are other factors but it will give you an idea.

Try that with any of them. 3 man shop for Ed Brown. Father and two sons. 80 guns a year.

Les Baer. I don't know how big but that same report says just under 2000 a year.

Or consider 31,000 plus a year how many minutes per gun and the more the assemblers spend on the highend Kimbers the less they spend on the standard guns.

That maens best buy on the market and that means value for a standard 1911 is a base Target or Fixed sight Kimber or loaded Springfield. If you have to tweek with a part or two, so what.

The "alleged" frame rejection can be a convenient out as you surmise or it can be a "I want it done right or we don't sell it" also.

I would think the latter as in the niche Wilson (Custom guns only) is in otherwise they (Wilson) would be out of business.

One bad gun or problem will cost you at least 6 to 10 more in potiential buyers who hearing the poor guy who bought it complain about it went to the competitor.

Sometimes in this instant society, instant is not the way to go.

You get what you pay for front end or back end.

One doesn't always pay with money, that includes time, research, experience and many other forms of payment.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters
http://www.pt-partners.com

PS. Finally got some life in the Wilson forum other than got my gun it is great or got a bad mag I had for 5 years and they replaced it no questions asked or Gee, I had a problem and they fixed it no questions asked.

 

[PT-Partners]

Strider.

I am sorry I mispelled your name in the last post.

Terry Peters

 

[Brian Bilby]

Aug,

Jericho is owned by Kimber. They used to be owned by Magnum Research when Kimber first started making 1911's, but when the Desert Eagle was started to be made at the Saco defense plant, Magnum Research sold Jericho to Kimber. They make the frames for several companies including Kimber, Wilson, McCormick and Nowlin. Some raw forgings are made in house, some supposedly come from S&W. The frames are exactly the same, but due to ATF regulations and the assignment of serial numbers and roolmarking, the frames have to be unfinished when shipped to the end buyers so they can finish machine them, serial number and rollmark their names on it. If not, Jericho has to have a special variance from the ATF for the frames, which is costly and a pain in the ass.

I have noticed on recent vintage Kimbers that the heat treat is too hard and the maching is poorer. This maybe why Wilson dumped them. I heard about this for a while now.

Brian

 

[strider]

Terry, no problem on the spelling.

I was only throwning something out there, perhaps that was trolling.

I would agree that Wilson would have high standards and wish to maintain them. High quality is their market. Without it they are dead in the water.

 

[AUG]

I stand corrected. I was un unaware that Kimber purchased Jericho. Does Kimber still use McCormick for the small parts?

I have never had a problem with the Jericho frames and slides and what I don't like about Kimbers are the cheap MIM parts and the "Glock like" following they have when the ones I have seen have not been very durable.

 

[buzz_knox]

A bit off-topic but where might you hail from, AUG? I note you are a fellow East Tennessean? Give me an e-mail sometime if you happen to be down around Knoxville.

 

[Ford]

I have a stainless Wilson on order. I probably wont get it untill around Feb. or March of 2001 any way but I wonder if mine will be blued and then chromed or stainless. I have not heard any thing from Wilson. I have been out of the loop big time though.

------------------
Help me buy another gun, buy a Ford!

UAW-NRA

[This message has been edited by Ford (edited 09-30-2000).]

 

[John Boy]

Careful Terry, You make good money from people who "must have" these pistols right away. Correct? Many dealers will order Wilson, Baer or Brown pistol for someone at discount prices, but people won't wait! And you fill the need at a very nice margin.

I'm not dissing you, I love a guy who finds a niche and fills it...God Bless America

Originally posted by PT-Partners:
Stider

Sometimes in this instant society, instant is not the way to go.

You get what you pay for front end or back end.

Terry Peters

[This message has been edited by John Boy (edited 10-04-2000).]

 

[PT-Partners]

JohnBoy

I only wish my cystal ball could of forseen the happening and I would have had more coming in only three or four a month.

As of this post and at the end of todays Dallas, Market Hall gun show. 5 instock, 3 now belong to others and all but one due in by the end of November are prepaid.

Doesn't do any of us good if neither you or I can get product.

By the way the CQB compact you asked about is gone and so is the Protector Compact.

Side note to all.

VOTE. VOTE. VOTE.

Please for the sake of us all. VOTE.

Or we will definately get what we paid for in the "guvmint"

Terry Peters
http://www.pt-partners.com

 

[John Boy]

Thanks for the update Terry. I ordered a protector compact elsewhere Thursday. I'm not a need one yesterday type.

A little stock market decline and Bush/Cheney
getting elected will soften up the demand some. Many high-end durables are already slowing down. But the gun market is influenced by additional factors. I for one
am worried about a "gun crackdown" on the horizon if Gore gets elected.

Originally posted by PT-Partners:


By the way the CQB compact you asked about is gone and so is the Protector Compact.

 

[Army Chief]

Hi John Boy,

You make tons of money from people who "must have" these pistols right away ...

In PT-Partner's defense, I don't view this comment as very well-informed or too realistic.

The margins in the premium 1911 business are a heck of a lot slimmer than you've been led to believe, and if Terry was making tons of money (that's like 2,000 pounds of money, right?

), he'd probably be dealing slabsides full time, and working LE on the side ... not the other way around. The way some of the transactions in this business pan out, he's probably lucky to make enough money to buy himself a Happy Meal on the way home.

If I were in the market for a 2001 Ferrari, I wouldn't expect the dealer to do too much piss-ant haggling ... I'd just count myself lucky that he could actually get what I was looking for. IMHO, the same "big boy" rules apply here; give the man his just margin, and enjoy your investment for life.

Chuck

 

[PT-Partners]

Johnboy.

That potential of a "gun crackdown" is very realistic expectation and one I hear quite a bit from the buyers out there. I believe there is a real drive this year on buying which may mean for the business standpoint depending on which way the election goes a real slowdown. As for as the "crystal" ball for increased regulation I have a very, very bad feeling about the way the country could swing.

That subject is a whole thread if not a whole forum on its own.

The potential customers that have the mindset that I already have mine forget that so did several other alleged countries.

They, those other countries, are now history.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters.