Am I the only one who noticed that the Wilson 1911's are identical in basic parts as the Kimber? Why are they so much more? I have 3 Kimbers that shoot like crazy but seriously want a CQB. But I am struggling to justify the cost for what is the same basic pistol. Hell, the compacts use the same exact bushingless set up. Plus the frames and slides are made by Kimber's plant. What gives?
WILSON v. Kimber?
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You need to check out and shoot a Wilson CQB. That experience will amaze you, IMHO.
I have shot an accurized Colt series 70 for 25 years. Accurized by an excellent nationally ranked gunsmith, shoots 1" at 25 when I am up to it. Eats any ammo, but the trigger is beginning to go and is going to need major retuning soon at mucho expense since the gunsmith has retired.
I picked up a Kimber Custom Classic this summer while out in Calif for $500 because they can no longer sell them there and I am lucky enough to live in West Virginia. What a nice gun! Good slide to frame fit, nice finishing, and while I had a problem with the magazine release, Kimber sent me a new one, no questions asked. Doesn't shoot as accurately as my Colt (maybe 2 1/2" at 25, maybe a little better) but it chokes on my SWC handloads. It may get better as it breaks in.
Then, I managed to come across, by accident, a great deal on a new Wilson CQB. I can't tell the price or I would get the seller in trouble. Wow. What a gun! I was planning on saving it for next year's IDPA until after I got it broke in. Well, I am shooting it this Saturday. I ran a practice qualifier with my Colt and with the Wilson and I moved up two levels with the Wilson! It is a superb gun with a lifetime warranty. It costs three times the Kimber, but if you can afford it it is (IMHO) worth it.
The worst thing about it is that all my friends want to borrow it for their trials. I feel like painting it black so no one knows what an advantage I have with it.
Try one, you will see!
Tim
I have shot an accurized Colt series 70 for 25 years. Accurized by an excellent nationally ranked gunsmith, shoots 1" at 25 when I am up to it. Eats any ammo, but the trigger is beginning to go and is going to need major retuning soon at mucho expense since the gunsmith has retired.
I picked up a Kimber Custom Classic this summer while out in Calif for $500 because they can no longer sell them there and I am lucky enough to live in West Virginia. What a nice gun! Good slide to frame fit, nice finishing, and while I had a problem with the magazine release, Kimber sent me a new one, no questions asked. Doesn't shoot as accurately as my Colt (maybe 2 1/2" at 25, maybe a little better) but it chokes on my SWC handloads. It may get better as it breaks in.
Then, I managed to come across, by accident, a great deal on a new Wilson CQB. I can't tell the price or I would get the seller in trouble. Wow. What a gun! I was planning on saving it for next year's IDPA until after I got it broke in. Well, I am shooting it this Saturday. I ran a practice qualifier with my Colt and with the Wilson and I moved up two levels with the Wilson! It is a superb gun with a lifetime warranty. It costs three times the Kimber, but if you can afford it it is (IMHO) worth it.
The worst thing about it is that all my friends want to borrow it for their trials. I feel like painting it black so no one knows what an advantage I have with it.
Try one, you will see!
Tim
I've got two Wilson CQB's. The first one cost me $1700 plus tax, the second one cost me $1300. I've been shooting 1911's for 30 years and in all that time, I've yet to find a gun as good as the CQB. I may just sell off a few more of my older, non name brand 1911's and pick up a Wilson Tactical.
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"Parts don't make the gun, who puts it together does." - DB
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=3622&forum=5&18
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"ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE..."
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=3622&forum=5&18
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"ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE..."
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3,480 Posts
Glock_Racer is right. That being said, my wife's Kimber Stainless Target, if she would part with it, would be a great combat gun with new sights. It is as smooth as my CQB and functions as well. It is also about 2 years old and the new versions don't seem as smooth, although I am sure some are.
I am not sure what you mean about the same basic parts. Both the slides and frame are from Jericho, Kimber's company, but it is the fitting, assembly, testing that becomes really important. They may use some of the same parts, hell they all look alike, but they use a bunch of different parts, and they look alike too, and then they have a whole different group of people put it together.
I am not sure what you mean about the same basic parts. Both the slides and frame are from Jericho, Kimber's company, but it is the fitting, assembly, testing that becomes really important. They may use some of the same parts, hell they all look alike, but they use a bunch of different parts, and they look alike too, and then they have a whole different group of people put it together.
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3,480 Posts
Ding, my CQB can supposed do the same thing, only I can't. I cannot fault the shooting of my CQB, period. If a shot isn't good, it is the shooter, not the gun - every time.
Take the car analogy for cost issues. All cars do the same essential thing, just like all guns do. There are small, sporty cars, big road hogs, cheap crappy cars, expensive cars. There are some cars you can abuse and others that won't take any.
In the car world, the Kimber might be a nice, quality Toyota. Nicely made, runs well, good quality. The Wilson is the Lexus version. Is the Lexus worth 10-20K more than the Toyota? They both have some of the same parts. Both are going to be good cars. Both get you from Point A to Point B.
It is your call and it is a personal call. Me, I think it is the right decision to make for ME in MY situation. Wilson takes care of its customers when there are problems. They thrive on the repeat business.
Take the car analogy for cost issues. All cars do the same essential thing, just like all guns do. There are small, sporty cars, big road hogs, cheap crappy cars, expensive cars. There are some cars you can abuse and others that won't take any.
In the car world, the Kimber might be a nice, quality Toyota. Nicely made, runs well, good quality. The Wilson is the Lexus version. Is the Lexus worth 10-20K more than the Toyota? They both have some of the same parts. Both are going to be good cars. Both get you from Point A to Point B.
It is your call and it is a personal call. Me, I think it is the right decision to make for ME in MY situation. Wilson takes care of its customers when there are problems. They thrive on the repeat business.
I lost five points today in IDPA because two head shots at 10 yards literally went through the same hole. Both the range officer and I saw the hits. Yet there was no conclusive evidence so I conceeded the miss even though we both knew I hit.
I love my CQB even when it costs me points!
Tim
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I love my CQB even when it costs me points!
Tim
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Just traded in my Kimber for a Wilson Classic Stainless. Now the Kimber is a nice gun but after handling the Wilson it just raises the bar a notch. For most any job the Kimber will do a great job but if you demand that extra notch of performance the Wilson is worth it. The most noticable difference for me is the trigger. My Kimber had a good trigger but the Wilson trigger is exceptional. There is no noticable trigger creep and with a little pressure, it breaks like glass. The average user may not appreciate, or even need, this degree of performance from a gun but if you're looking for that "little something beyond" go for the Wilson. Your money will be well spent.
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2,545 Posts
Ding,
If you will pardon me for saying so, Kimbers and Wilsons have less in common than you might think. True, the frames and slides ship from the same place (so do Chip McCormick's and Nowlin's, for that matter), but the similarities pretty much end there. JERICHO produces these components to the customer's specifications, and what may be fine for a Kimber might be completely out of tolerance for a Wilson.
The nod must go to Wilson where quality internals are concerned as well, as WC spec's their parts to a completely different (i.e. custom grade) standard. I'm not suggesting that Kimbers are inferior products by any means, but there is a lot more involved here than meets the eye. GM may lay down the same basic chasis for a Chevrolet and a Cadillac, but clearly the latter is worth the extra expense.
In my opinion, the most significant difference between a production 1911 (Kimber) and a custom/semi-custom 1911 (Wilson) comes from who actually builds the gun. In this respect, there simply is no comparison between the two. Would you rather have a pistol that was mass-assembled by a technician, or one that was carefully hand-fitted by a pistolsmith? To use an extreme example, that's like asking if there is a difference between a box-stock Colt and a custom Commander by Richard Heinie. Whether or not that difference is worth paying an additional $2500 is a question that each man must answer for himself. I say that it is.
Wilson or Kimber? Both are worthy guns, but there is a gulf of difference between them, and -- to borrow a line from Terry Peters -- you get what you pay for ...
Chuck
If you will pardon me for saying so, Kimbers and Wilsons have less in common than you might think. True, the frames and slides ship from the same place (so do Chip McCormick's and Nowlin's, for that matter), but the similarities pretty much end there. JERICHO produces these components to the customer's specifications, and what may be fine for a Kimber might be completely out of tolerance for a Wilson.
The nod must go to Wilson where quality internals are concerned as well, as WC spec's their parts to a completely different (i.e. custom grade) standard. I'm not suggesting that Kimbers are inferior products by any means, but there is a lot more involved here than meets the eye. GM may lay down the same basic chasis for a Chevrolet and a Cadillac, but clearly the latter is worth the extra expense.
In my opinion, the most significant difference between a production 1911 (Kimber) and a custom/semi-custom 1911 (Wilson) comes from who actually builds the gun. In this respect, there simply is no comparison between the two. Would you rather have a pistol that was mass-assembled by a technician, or one that was carefully hand-fitted by a pistolsmith? To use an extreme example, that's like asking if there is a difference between a box-stock Colt and a custom Commander by Richard Heinie. Whether or not that difference is worth paying an additional $2500 is a question that each man must answer for himself. I say that it is.
Wilson or Kimber? Both are worthy guns, but there is a gulf of difference between them, and -- to borrow a line from Terry Peters -- you get what you pay for ...
Chuck
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401 Posts
StormMaster, you are 100% correct in your statement that it is who builds the pistol that counts. Jericho was purchased by Kimber several years ago. Kimber supplies the slides and frames to Wilson. Too Wilson's specs. I might add, the bare forgings are shiped to Kimber from Smith & Wesson. And even though I don't agree with some of S&W's recent policies, their forgings are some of the best in the world. I have a Kimber Custom and a Kimber Compact. Nice guns, but I just ordered a Wilson CQB. Just one look and I was sold. Shoot Safe.....CO
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"I won't be wronged, I
won't be Insulted, and I
won't be laid a had on. I
don't do these things to
other people and I
require the same from
them." From the movie
"The Shootist."
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"I won't be wronged, I
won't be Insulted, and I
won't be laid a had on. I
don't do these things to
other people and I
require the same from
them." From the movie
"The Shootist."
From the horses mouth:
What are the differences between Wilson Combat® pistols and Kimber’s?
The largest differences between our pistols and Kimber's are the assembly methods and manufacturing tolerances. Every Wilson CombatÒ firearm is assembled by hand, by a gunsmith. And rigorously tested and inspected before it is sold. The result is an absolutely realiable firearm with a perfect fit and finish. Wilson CombatÒ manufacturing tolerances for frames, slides, and components are also much tighter.
What are the differences between Wilson Combat® pistols and Kimber’s?
The largest differences between our pistols and Kimber's are the assembly methods and manufacturing tolerances. Every Wilson CombatÒ firearm is assembled by hand, by a gunsmith. And rigorously tested and inspected before it is sold. The result is an absolutely realiable firearm with a perfect fit and finish. Wilson CombatÒ manufacturing tolerances for frames, slides, and components are also much tighter.
I too have just purchased a full size CQB and must say that I am very pleased and feel it was money well spent. The overall quality of the Gun is just night and day vs the Kimbers(Still Own a Pro CDP and recently sold my Custom CDP). I had a couple of changes made to my CQB, I switched from Wilson's value line hammer and sear to a BCP Hammer, Sear, and Disconnect. I have ordered a full length guide rod, I just don't trust the plastic ones. That being said I still feel that dollar for dollar the Kimber is a great factory gun but if you can afford the difference get the Wilson and you'll not regret it.
Thanks, Andy. The range officer is a friend and shooting buddy and I felt it was best to maintain the friendship rather than the score. My score was way below my usual standard anyway because I had completely blown a pie-plate shoot, my fault entirely.Originally posted by Andy:
Tphipps, if the range officer SAW the hits, he should have given you the points. It pays to keep a " scoring plug" tool in the range bag for just such happenstances and the Doubting Thomases.
Thanks for the advice, though! Next year I plan on doing a whole lot better!
Tim
I'm not putting down Wilsons, which I'm sure are great guns (I own a Les Baer). But, help me understand something. The Wilson CQB costs about $1,800 and after spending that money Danger puts in a BCP fire system (to replace Wilson's MIM parts) and then gets a metal guide rod to replace the plastic one. Now, I can understand cutting those corners on a gun that costs $500-700, but for an $1,800 gun?
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