This stuff has been around about as long as I can remember. I guess that there are likely newer and better bullet designs and cartridge loads out there. But there must be a reason why this stuff is still around. My experience with it is limited. I was just curious to know if anybody else had anything to say about it, good, bad ,or otherwise?
Winchester Silvertip ammo?
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
Joined
·
7,414 Posts
It fed good in stock unthroated pistols with GI feed lips, which was the norm back when it was introduced. The aluminum jacketed bullet has a profile close to the 230gr FMJ GI ball round. Same was true for the Remington 185gr SJHP. Others like the Super Vel with it's truncated cone profile and the Speer 200gr ''flying shot glass'' and it's BIG hollow cavity were not very reliable in most stock, unmodified pistols. It expanded reliably and it was reported as very effective in the old Marshall-Sanow reports.
Joined
·
95 Posts
If I remember correctly, Winchester Silvertips came into play when hollow point projectiles on auto rounds and revolver rounds looked much the same. The big selling point was they tended to feed better than most auto hp rounds.
A lot has changed since then. I dug around and found a couple of boxes of .380 Silvertips from owning a PPK/S a long time ago. And some .357 and .45 ACP Black Talons (cue scary music) Just a little trip down ammunition's memory lane.
A lot has changed since then. I dug around and found a couple of boxes of .380 Silvertips from owning a PPK/S a long time ago. And some .357 and .45 ACP Black Talons (cue scary music) Just a little trip down ammunition's memory lane.
Seecamp used to say that it was the only round that they recommended in their little pistols.
I've shot a little of it in 9mm, and it was reliable...but no more than others.
The bullets are nickel plated, which makes them slicker feeding-wise. Other than that, I don't think they're God's gift to anyone or anything. I'd rather an HST or SXT.
Joined
·
7,414 Posts
Winchester Silvertips in High Velocity rounds (over 1000fps) used nickel-plated gilding metal jackets.
Low velocity rounds like .45/.380/.32 ACP, and .38 Special used aluminum jackets. I have some right here in front of me.
That's good info! I've only handled and shot the 9mm stuff. And it's fine, but I don't think it's worth any kind of premium.
Joined
·
1,106 Posts
The 9mm Silvertip was the reason that, subsequent to the infamous "Miami FBI Shootout" in April of 1986, that the FBI went back to the drawing board and the 10mm cartridge was developed.
The repeated failures of the Silvertip to kill Matix and Platt has been examined in detail over the past 36 years. Caused the FBI to abandon the 9mm for several years, going through the 10mm and then the .40 S&W before finally jumping back into 9mm.
Frankly, I don't know why the round survives. I've seen nothing indicating that Winchester has done anything to improve this bullet in 9mm.
I will add that I scored a great deal on a 500-round case of 125-grain .357 Magnum Silvertip JHPs a few years back, and I'm using these, they're quite accurate.
Very interesting, I was unaware that those poor guys were using Silvertips. That guy with the mini 14, not sure by name which one of them that it was. But soaking up that many hits and still being able to return fire really gives one pause to consider handgun rounds in general. What a charnel house and those good guys getting just chewed to bits as a result. What a tragedy!
Joined
·
2,415 Posts
The Silvertip and the Corbon were the only ammo that fit, most others are too long. I have used both in the Seecamp and they work fine.
As to other ammo, I carry it and have carried it in the 380, 9mm, and 45 scp. I once shot a mule deer that was trying to get up when I approached, in fact, it jumped up just feet away. Aiming at his neck I hit low and put 2 of them thru his right hip, 10-11 inches of a big hole, it was snowing heavily and I was over a mile back to the truck so I did not dig around him to find the bullets.
The ST or the Hydra Shock has been my only carry load in 380. I consider they equal. I have killed one deer, and lots of smaller critters with the 380 and those 2 bullets.
The ST is my choice carry load for my 38 Super. It shoots great, gets the advertised velocity and I trust it to work perfectly with the STs. I am told it is the simple best carry load for the 10mm, but have not tried them yet.
It is my #1 choice for the Seecamp 32, I do have Corbon also.
I do have 45 acp STs that are 185 grain Plus P that I carry in the Smith and Wesson Governor as a backup to the usual 410 and 45 Colt ammo that I carry in the gun, but have never shot anything with them in the wheel gun. I also still carry them in the 45 Officers Model which I rarely carry.
The Silvertips open quickly and make a big hole. They are moderate in recoil and totally reliable. They have stood the test of time because they are a good balance of power and penetration. And many ex LEO guys like myself are not impressed by all the gee whiz new bullets on the market. All the police shootings the last decade have told us that the quality of ammo in the gun does not matter much, it is the quality of the shooter. Most police shootings could be handled with ball ammo, if the officer could just shoot. IMHO.
The Silvertips for rifle are a totally different animal. They are made by Nosler, basically a moly coated Ballistic Tip. I only use the factory loads in 30-06, several boxes of the 168 grain that I got as a gift. My 30-06 will shoot 1/2 inch groups with them, so my perfectly tailored reloads I now just use for practice, the Silvertip ammo for that gun is better than what I can load, or what anybody can load. I have shot 3 shots groups from a led sled so tiny you could not tell if it was on bullet or 3, so I am high on them.
So, if you can find them, they are still great ammo.
Joined
·
2,415 Posts
The reason that the 9mm Silvertip survived is because their tests did not find that the bullet type mattered. The one bullet that did not reach the heart, was, well one bullet, So, they did all their testing and guess what, not one 9mm brand of bullet of any type could reach the 12 inch limit with proper expansion. I have copied their test results below.
And also, I will point out over and over. That bullet went thru his forearm before it his chest.
The 9mm Silvertip is the bottom one here. It only penetrated 11.37 inches, an average of 40 rounds. And a predictability rating of only 35% success. The 3 Hydra-Shok rounds all had a predicted rating of 75-82.5%.
But if you look at the chart only 2 rounds had a 100% predictability rating, the 357 and the 10mm. The 10mm was a 170 grain bullet at 1,358 fps. My 400 Corbon 165 grain factory loads go 1,361 fps, and produce about 670 foot pounds. So, that is what their tests said they needed. But I promise you the recoil of those rounds would shut down 90% of most folks from carrying. I love it, for a little while. The muzzle flip and blast is similar to my 44 mags.
The other 100% stopper was the 357, a lowly 158 grain bullet at only 1, 183 fps. My 3 inch model 60 J frame shoots factory ammo faster than that, but there is also recoil. Now go thru the chart and look at each of the silvertip ratings, almost all of them failed miserably. Look at the 380, only a 20% success rate predicted. And the 38 special at 17.5%
But then the 357 Silvertip had a predicted success rate of 82.5%. So, what did that tell us? I suggest it told us that the Silvertip just blew up too shallow into the target. The 12 inch penetration requirement is what killed most of their predictability ratings. So, based in this chart, they went to the 9mm.
So, what does that tell us today? Nothing. Look at that 9mm ST velocity, it was 1,091. Now it is rated at 1,225 fps..
The 45 tested at 951, today they say it will get 1,000 fps. The 38 was 843, today they claim 945. I have tested some Winchester 38 ammo of recent production out of my 3 inch 357 and get about 925-930, significantly more than what I would normally get. So, I assume they just speeded it up. Silvertip Handgun Ammo - 9mm & Magnum Rounds | Winchester Ammunition
Anyway, the Silvertip that did not reach the heart if I recall correctly was fired from the side, not a straight on shot. and went through the forearm. But to fix the penetration issue, the FBI just went to a bigger 9mm bullet, to get more penetration. Note the comment from the FBI.
“The 9mm Winchester Silvertip, which didn’t penetrate enough during the Miami shootout, was replaced with a Winchester 147-grain hollowpoint subsonic, which worked well in 9mm. Until then, expansion was considered the most important factor in a round, assuming a target was facing the shooter squarely…After Miami, much more consideration was given to penetration.”
So, then in 2017 or so, the went right back to the 9. The Silvertip was only 1/2 inch short of the protocol they use now. How would it compare with other 9mm bullets all in a frontal shot? Who knows.
And as I recall, the Silvertip that got all the blame from the FBI for dead officers, when completely through his forearm before it hit his chest. Some people have claimed the FBI created the Silvertip controversy to take away from failed tactics and poor planning. I dunno, but I know they have gone back to the 9mm, which they said was not suitable for a duty gun. Yea, I know better bullets.
I carried lots of different ammo in several different LE jobs. That said, I have no problem carrying Silvertips today. But then, I am confident with 45 ball too, so FWIW
Joined
·
1,106 Posts
Mas Ayoob wrote up a great article several years back on the Miami FBI shootout, detailing the alleged failure of the Silvertips and how the Bureau moved forward from all that. I'll see if I can find it.
There was a lot of discussion about what drove the FBI's testing and subsequent choices (politics? CYA? A genuine desire for better performing ammo?), as well as Monday-morning quarterbacking of the shootout, the tactics and how it went down.
As a lifelong government employee, I'm resigned to the fact that after any critical incident, there's always gonna be a scapegoat Was the Silvertip wrongly made the "fall guy" for bad tactics, inaccurate shooting and the inevitable quirks of a gunfight, i.e., a bullet passing through a limb before entering a torso and not fully penetrating the heart? Depends on which report or whose account you read.
All I will add is that my wife likes the Silvertips because, well, they're all silver and look cool. So I guess there's the CDI factor. The only question remains, will they kill werewolves?
There was a lot of discussion about what drove the FBI's testing and subsequent choices (politics? CYA? A genuine desire for better performing ammo?), as well as Monday-morning quarterbacking of the shootout, the tactics and how it went down.
As a lifelong government employee, I'm resigned to the fact that after any critical incident, there's always gonna be a scapegoat Was the Silvertip wrongly made the "fall guy" for bad tactics, inaccurate shooting and the inevitable quirks of a gunfight, i.e., a bullet passing through a limb before entering a torso and not fully penetrating the heart? Depends on which report or whose account you read.
All I will add is that my wife likes the Silvertips because, well, they're all silver and look cool. So I guess there's the CDI factor. The only question remains, will they kill werewolves?
Main issues with me for WW Silvertips (at least in auto's and having shot them since they first came out) is that they are prone to bullet setback/pushback from feeding and recoil and that their accuracy is nothing special/mediocre (certainly well below rounds like Federal 9BP etc.) and after years of being on the market I can't see that they've improved regarding either issue.
Joined
·
48 Posts
Don't trust anything said agency does, tests, claims, etc.
Back to the question, Winchester Silver Tips are fantastic in 10mm. Nice middle of the road power, and the ammo looks very well made.
Back to the question, Winchester Silver Tips are fantastic in 10mm. Nice middle of the road power, and the ammo looks very well made.
While the name hasn't changed, I'm pretty sure today's Silvertip is not the same bullet as the 1986 Silvertip.
In 1986, "energy dump" was the theory of the day. High velocity, rapid expansion, and shallow penetration were the desired effects. As mentioned above, that theory was kicked to the side, and greater penetration was looked for. I believe Winchester modified the bullet in the ensuing years.
In 1986, "energy dump" was the theory of the day. High velocity, rapid expansion, and shallow penetration were the desired effects. As mentioned above, that theory was kicked to the side, and greater penetration was looked for. I believe Winchester modified the bullet in the ensuing years.
The modern SilverTip is just marketing to reuse a known name. When they were reintroduced, a couple of years ago, they were all redesigned.
With that said, Gold Dots came out over 30 years ago. The Gold Dots from the early 1990’s are different than new Gold Dots you buy, today. There are regularly small differences being made without announcement or fanfare. Same can be said for nearly every premium defensive round, from every manufacturer. Another example is the recent change to the 9mm HST’s.
Keep in mind the current Silver Tip isn’t a “premium LE defensive” round. It’s a mid-pack defensive JHP.
With that said, Gold Dots came out over 30 years ago. The Gold Dots from the early 1990’s are different than new Gold Dots you buy, today. There are regularly small differences being made without announcement or fanfare. Same can be said for nearly every premium defensive round, from every manufacturer. Another example is the recent change to the 9mm HST’s.
Keep in mind the current Silver Tip isn’t a “premium LE defensive” round. It’s a mid-pack defensive JHP.
Joined
·
139 Posts
I am in a area of Europe where they are known to habit will get one for you and send him over that way can test out the theory
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
