[Govtman]

Didn't the guy who invented the Winchester Black Talon change jobs to Remington and invent the Golden Sabre that pretty much does the same thing as Black Talons using folded cartridge brass as jacket material that unfolds into sharp, stiff "petals" that cut flesh? I love Golden Sabres and in 147 gr 9mm was my carry round for quite a while. I switched to Federal 124 gr HST about 3 years ago but I still have an unopened box of Golden Sabres.

Anyway, Is anyone out there, besides me, old enough to remember Mer-core ammo? I saw these for sale in Shotgun News in the 1970s. They were mercury filled pistol bullets! Mercury is heavier than lead and the idea was that the mercury would splatter into penetrating droplets causing nasty damage. The ads for these bullets did not run long. I imagine they were outlawed in short order or did not sell. I sure as hell wouldn't care to try them!

My BinL was LEO for the USFS before they switched to Glock 40s. He carried a Sig P226 or 228 which ever was service size. They were at different times issued different ammo.
He had
Federal 9BPLE 115 +P+
Federal 124+p Hydra Shok
Rem 124+p Golden Saber

He was carrying the GS one day when he came across a herd of wild hogs running across a back road on the US Forest he worked. They were told to kill any hogs they see. He jumped out of his Tahoe and commenced to killing running hogs.

He fired 15 rounds....had 13 hogs on the ground...one hit 2x. He was not to be messed with with his Sig. Took off next 2 days, called friends and processed hogs.

Several years before retirement, he was chosen as Law Enforcement Officer of the year for the US Forest Service. 😎 He asked if they could just mail his plaque as he did not want to go to DC to receive it from Secretary of Agriculture. 🤣

After retirement, the DEA was wanting him to work as trainer at their training facility in Louisiana or was it Mississippi??? He said, nope I'm done!

 

[riposte191145]

I may have jumped the gun a little. From Dr. French Anderson's book "Forensic Analysis" he does say there were two 9mm "million dollar shots" (his term) - one from Dove's gun and one from Risner's - both on track for the heart. Neither hit any intervening barriers. Both went through the flesh (only) of the arm - one stopped between two ribs and one expanded and tumbled and went into the right lung - that one had a total of 8" (approximately).

interestingly, Risner's shot cut the tendons to Platt's three lower fingers and he could not hold the gun firmly - but he could pull the trigger - sadly.

The "non-survivable" wound was to the biracial artery in the arm (presumably Dove's round) .

Riposte

 

[slimwilson]

I have only used them in my old colt 357 lawman revolver they were great and consistent and very accurate and lot of recoil. Next closest thing I’ve still got Winchester ballistic tip with moly lube coating in 30-30 great deer slayer similar ballistics to Hornady lever-lution but a little faster with the lube. Not a fan of hollow points in 45acp too slow for expansion usually and besides it’s 45 already it doesn’t need to expand! I do carry a 9mm sometimes and I have it loaded with hollow points currently Nosler 147 grain JHP. Practice practice! Semper Fi and Can Do

 

[jtq]

?

Actually, I'd give them a mixed review since there are two different types of Silver-tips for handguns and another type for rifles.

The First 9mm loading was a 115 gr. aluminum jacketed hollow point (that is the one that only penetrated 5" from Dove's gun in the FBI "Miami Masacre" - no bone was hit).

The .45 Silvertip was also aluminum (as was the .38 Spl. and the .44 Spl). The .45 was a 185 gr. at 950 fps (nominally) and I've had those fail to exit 8 lbs woodchucks (they do open up though).

Wasn't the 185gr .45 Auto Silver Tip the target performance window for the FBI 10mm/.40 S&W round when they were developing that round?

 

[tonycee]

Didn't the guy who invented the Winchester Black Talon change jobs to Remington and invent the Golden Sabre that pretty much does the same thing as Black Talons using folded cartridge brass as jacket material that unfolds into sharp, stiff "petals" that cut flesh? I love Golden Sabres and in 147 gr 9mm was my carry round for quite a while. I switched to Federal 124 gr HST about 3 years ago but I still have an unopened box of Golden Sabres.

Anyway, Is anyone out there, besides me, old enough to remember Mer-core ammo? I saw these for sale in Shotgun News in the 1970s. They were mercury filled pistol bullets! Mercury is heavier than lead and the idea was that the mercury would splatter into penetrating droplets causing nasty damage. The ads for these bullets did not run long. I imagine they were outlawed in short order or did not sell. I sure as hell wouldn't care to try them!

I still have 2 boxes of .45 ACP Black Talons. Are they worth anything? I remember they were trying to ban them..

 

[USMM guy]

I still have 2 boxes of .45 ACP Black Talons. Are they worth anything? I remember they were trying to ban them..

They never banned them. Winchester decided to just take them off the market due to all of the bad press that they were getting. I have a few boxes of them myself.

 

[Ranger4]

Well the best guy to ask would be Jerry Dove, but you can't, as he is dead


Actually, I'd give them a mixed review since there are two different types of Silver-tips for handguns and another type for rifles.

The First 9mm loading was a 115 gr. aluminum jacketed hollow point (that is the one that only penetrated 5" from Dove's gun in the FBI "Miami Masacre" - no bone was hit).

The .45 Silvertip was also aluminum (as was the .38 Spl. and the .44 Spl). The .45 was a 185 gr. at 950 fps (nominally) and I've had those fail to exit 8 lbs woodchucks (they do open up though). The .44 Spl is a 200 gr. but only goes around 800 from a 4".

I have not seen any of the .45s, .44 spl or .38 Spl. lately so I don't know if they have changed - the 9mms went to cupro-nickel jackets as is the Super .38 and the 9X23.

The Magnum Revolver rounds and the 10mm and later 9mm are jacketed with standard cupro-nickel jackets and then nickel plated to make them silver - those are a "horse of a different color" - while sort of light for caliber they are also not loaded super hot and hold together - a friend shot a deer that was facing him with a 210 gr. .44 from a 5" M-29 and it expanded perfectly and ended up in the rump! The 10mm and .41 Magnum are 175 gr. at around 1250 and the .357 is 145 gr. about the same velocity.

The 9X23 Silver tip gets 1560 fps from my partner's Colt 9 X 23, it only gets 1450 from my Barsto 5" barrel (A re-chambered Super .38).

Riposte

I think the old FBI tests in the 80s and 90s really helped change ammo for the better. But those old tests do not tell us much about the ammo today. Ball is the same but everything else has changed. And barrel length is critical, if you have a very short barrel, then none of them expand much at all. I personally test everything that I carry for that very reason. I am very high on the current Silvertip for the 32 ACP, 380, 38 Super and of course the 45. as you can see from the tests listed below.

Ammo2Go did a comprehensive test of 45 acp with a 4.5 inch barrel. Of the 35 loads tested, the 185 grain Winchester Silvertip Ballistic Tip was the fourth best which included all of the current premium bullets on the market. The top 5 were as follows:

Performance in gelatin Expansion

1. Winchester Talon HP 230 grain .91

2. Federal HST Plus P 230 grain .85

3. Federal LE Tactical 230 grain HST .84

4. Winchester 185 grain Silvertip Plus P .83

5. Federal Law Enforcement 230 grain Plus P .81

They did the same with 9mm which most did not do well at all and most other calibers. Their tests are more current than most that we see. and well worth the look. 9mm Ammo - Cheap Prices, In-Stock Today (ammunitiontogo.com)

 

[Crab Boy]

Nice Chart Ranger4. Thanks.

 

[Ranger4]

One of my pet peeves is that factory ammo usually does not get the velocity the company claims. That said, I found that Winchester was pretty close in my 38 Super Plus P. A decade or so ago, I built a Super and it is a one inch gun, the only one I have ever owned, and I doubt I could build one again. I just pulled out my range records because Silver Tips were the most accurate ammo I could find and still is my first choice if I carry that gun.

On November 27, 2012, I went shooting. I had killed a big deer the weekend before and my season was over. Here are my notes from that day.

Winchester 125 grain Silvertip Plus P 1,188 fps. Their adds say 1,226 fps 97% of advertised

Winchester 130 grain Plus P FMJ 1,227 fps Their adds say 1,240 fps 99% of advertised

Both were a little slow but great compared to most others. I FMJ are their white box version. Extremely accurate as well.

And as I said above it has been my carry ammo in the little Officer's Model since 1985. I do not see any records that I kept on it but it was always 100%. I know that because in all these years I have never had a single jam or fail to feed or anything except perfection out of that little gun. Nope, not for sale.

I think you will find them pretty good ammo, not Supervel or Buffalo Bore but good enough.

Today, I got the May issue of Shooting Times, Author Steve Gash did a review of a new 1911, the Tristar American Classic in 38 Super. Yesterday I commented that my 5 inch gun got 1,188 fps, Gash got 1,186 in his review. 97% of the advertised velocity, so close enough. It was the fastest of the 4 factory brands he tested.

He also accuracy tested them, they were better than the 3 other brands he tested, PMC, Magtec, and Remington, it was the most accurate., actually by 1/2 to 3/4 inch at the 20 yards he tested. Seems like more and more gun reviewers do not want to walk that long 25 yards to their targets. He also tested 13 handloads, it was better than all but 3. And that has been my deal, the 38 Super I have and Silvertips are the most accurate handgun combination I have ever fired. The 1,188 fps I get with mine is 392 foot pounds. Not even close to my 400 Corbon for serious carry but much better than what I get with the several 9mms that I sometimes carry.

For people that load the 38 Super he had some nice recipes. No barn burners but some pretty small spreads. The 1911 he reviewed is a nice looking gun. Called a "satin chrome" it looks much like my original satin nickel Colt commander from 1974.

Anyway, at least this one gun writer is using the Silvertip ammo for his testing and it is showing up very well in the 38 Super.

 

[riposte191145]

?

Wasn't the 185gr .45 Auto Silver Tip the target performance window for the FBI 10mm/.40 S&W round when they were developing that round?

I hate to admit that but I'm not sure. I did talk to John Hall (Director of FTU when the protocol was implemented) and he liked the .45 but we didn't touch on specific loads - I did get the impression he tended toward 230 gr. in .45. I have the first 5 or 6 of thier Reports, I'm sure the .45 SilverTip is in them. He didn't necessarily like the way the 10mm FBI load ended up but I think he accepted the compromise due to some agents just not being "into guns".

John did a presentation for our instructor class on Liability (he was the FBIs lawyer on use of force) and in it he mentioned he defended a case in which a bank robber sued the FBI, after being shot 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buck, for excessive use of force... the guy lived! (he did not win though).

The argument was that he was trying to surrender, and the FBI shot him along with his partner in crime (who died at the scene) - The judge, in denying the suit, said: "When you associate with known dangerous felons it is sometimes difficult to disassociate yourself in a timely manner."

Johns "rules for a gunfight" were:

1. Have a gun!
2. Have a BIG gun!
3. More is more and bigger is better!
4. Pretty isn't important.

I sort of liked him!

Riposte

 

[jlively]

The Silvertip and the Corbon were the only ammo that fit, most others are too long. I have used both in the Seecamp and they work fine.

As to other ammo, I carry it and have carried it in the 380, 9mm, and 45 scp. I once shot a mule deer that was trying to get up when I approached, in fact, it jumped up just feet away. Aiming at his neck I hit low and put 2 of them thru his right hip, 10-11 inches of a big hole, it was snowing heavily and I was over a mile back to the truck so I did not dig around him to find the bullets.

The ST or the Hydra Shock has been my only carry load in 380. I consider they equal. I have killed one deer, and lots of smaller critters with the 380 and those 2 bullets.

The ST is my choice carry load for my 38 Super. It shoots great, gets the advertised velocity and I trust it to work perfectly with the STs. I am told it is the simple best carry load for the 10mm, but have not tried them yet.

It is my #1 choice for the Seecamp 32, I do have Corbon also.

I do have 45 acp STs that are 185 grain Plus P that I carry in the Smith and Wesson Governor as a backup to the usual 410 and 45 Colt ammo that I carry in the gun, but have never shot anything with them in the wheel gun. I also still carry them in the 45 Officers Model which I rarely carry.

The Silvertips open quickly and make a big hole. They are moderate in recoil and totally reliable. They have stood the test of time because they are a good balance of power and penetration. And many ex LEO guys like myself are not impressed by all the gee whiz new bullets on the market. All the police shootings the last decade have told us that the quality of ammo in the gun does not matter much, it is the quality of the shooter. Most police shootings could be handled with ball ammo, if the officer could just shoot. IMHO.

The Silvertips for rifle are a totally different animal. They are made by Nosler, basically a moly coated Ballistic Tip. I only use the factory loads in 30-06, several boxes of the 168 grain that I got as a gift. My 30-06 will shoot 1/2 inch groups with them, so my perfectly tailored reloads I now just use for practice, the Silvertip ammo for that gun is better than what I can load, or what anybody can load. I have shot 3 shots groups from a led sled so tiny you could not tell if it was on bullet or 3, so I am high on them.

So, if you can find them, they are still great ammo.

+1…..the ST is my preferred round for self defense in my .38 Super.

 

[riposte191145]

I may be getting off track here but I look at the FBI Protocol with mixed feelings (not strange for me, as I try to look at all the perspectives I can think of on a topic).

They were a good thing in that they gave us some measure, and they did at least include some barriers.

OTOH, their arbitrary (and capricious) standards of a minimum penetration of 12" and maximum of 18 are simply pulled out of the air - penetration in gel does not equal penetration in flesh, much less flesh and bone.

For instance, the 230 FMJ .45 typically penetrates 30-32" in 10% organic gel but it only exits the human body about half the time in the real world (of course it depends on not only who it hits but where it hits) - we don't have many shootings with ball here but oddly enough we've never had either .45 or .40 S&W (with 180 gr FMJ) exit a "shootee" (there aren't enough of them however to claim any sort of "data" there).

Modern expanding bullets tend to not open at all if you hit the sternum first - there is very little soft material over the sternum - which is where many of us would aim. I have not tested every bullet though - Gold Dots, HSTs and Winchester Ranger tend to not expand if I hit the sternum first (or a material that acts like it).

The folks that pointed out the most important aspects to me were both (man and wife) Senior Medical Examiners from San Diego -they had each done thousands of autopsies on shooting victims over 30 year careers.

I also lived near Memphis for a few years and worked in LE - the coroner there pointed out that the only difference in the wound track between a .38 spl LRN and a +P 125 Remington JHP (which the police used) was the JHP track was shorter - no bigger just shorter.

I did a court case back in KY on a homicide with that same bullet - I examined the gun, but not the bullet, but I did see the X-ray of the body - the bullet did not hit bone, and went about 9-10" and did not deform in any way. The victim died 4 days after he was shot.

This begs the question of synthetic gel. I look at this a lot, and Clear Ballistics gives from 2" to 6" of difference in penetration depending on the velocity and depending on the exact bullet and velocity - not much difference in expansion - mind you I use Clear Ballistics gel, it is just much simpler to use - but I do not depend on precisce penetration figures and certainly am not disappointed if a bullet penetrates 24" in it.

This is an interesting topic, I've studied it since I was 16 years old and I'm now 72 - I tend to get long winded, sorry 'bout that

Riposte

 

[mkk41]

This begs the question of synthetic gel. I look at this a lot, and Clear Ballistics gives from 2" to 6" of difference in penetration depending on the velocity and depending on the exact bullet and velocity - not much difference in expansion - mind you I use Clear Ballistics gel, it is just much simpler to use - but I do not depend on precisce penetration figures and certainly am not disappointed if a bullet penetrates 24" in it.

This is an interesting topic, I've studied it since I was 16 years old and I'm now 72 - I tend to get long winded, sorry 'bout that

Riposte

I have never put much stock in the Jello tests. Ballistic Gel is consistent throughout in it's composition and density where the human body & organs are not. Throw in some clothing and bones and and ya have added an unpredictable variable.
About 25yrs ago, a 115gr 9mm FMJ entered my lower leg from 90deg to my left about 6in below my knee, shattered the tibia and exited out the back on a 45deg down angle. It went thru the top of the padded collar of my Carolina boot on the way out..

 

[kopcicle]

The 185's in my Ser. 70 Gov printed low, I mean way low.
Even resorting to a lighter recoil spring and a heavier mainspring with a square firing pin retainer didn't raise point of impact.

I did find a use for some of the .357 ammunition. I knocked the bullets out of the 357 case and seated them on 35 Remington. Near field performance on feral dogs was exceptional.
Terminal ballistics consisted of instant inflation accompanied by a puff of pink mist on entry and exit.
I have no idea what the velocity was.

 

[kopcicle]

@Ranger4 Nice add

 

[Ranger4]

I hate to admit that but I'm not sure. I did talk to John Hall (Director of FTU when the protocol was implemented) and he liked the .45 but we didn't touch on specific loads - I did get the impression he tended toward 230 gr. in .45. I have the first 5 or 6 of thier Reports, I'm sure the .45 SilverTip is in them. He didn't necessarily like the way the 10mm FBI load ended up but I think he accepted the compromise due to some agents just not being "into guns".

John did a presentation for our instructor class on Liability (he was the FBIs lawyer on use of force) and in it he mentioned he defended a case in which a bank robber sued the FBI, after being shot 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buck, for excessive use of force... the guy lived! (he did not win though).

The argument was that he was trying to surrender, and the FBI shot him along with his partner in crime (who died at the scene) - The judge, in denying the suit, said: "When you associate with known dangerous felons it is sometimes difficult to disassociate yourself in a timely manner."

Johns "rules for a gunfight" were:

1. Have a gun!
2. Have a BIG gun!
3. More is more and bigger is better!
4. Pretty isn't important.

I sort of liked him!

Riposte

That is a cool story. What year was that? We got those bulletins monthly when I was in law enforcement. It finished degree in law enforcement in 1988 and had a long list of police shootings and most of the bizarre ones. Maybe it was after I retired. The big ones of course were the north LA shooting, Miami and a couple others. Do you recall any specifics about what the perp was hit with, etc? I do recall one where the robber sued the bank he robbed.

 

[Ranger4]

I may be getting off track here but I look at the FBI Protocol with mixed feelings (not strange for me, as I try to look at all the perspectives I can think of on a topic).

They were a good thing in that they gave us some measure, and they did at least include some barriers.

OTOH, their arbitrary (and capricious) standards of a minimum penetration of 12" and maximum of 18 are simply pulled out of the air - penetration in gel does not equal penetration in flesh, much less flesh and bone.

For instance, the 230 FMJ .45 typically penetrates 30-32" in 10% organic gel but it only exits the human body about half the time in the real world (of course it depends on not only who it hits but where it hits) - we don't have many shootings with ball here but oddly enough we've never had either .45 or .40 S&W (with 180 gr FMJ) exit a "shootee" (there aren't enough of them however to claim any sort of "data" there).

Modern expanding bullets tend to not open at all if you hit the sternum first - there is very little soft material over the sternum - which is where many of us would aim. I have not tested every bullet though - Gold Dots, HSTs and Winchester Ranger tend to not expand if I hit the sternum first (or a material that acts like it).

The folks that pointed out the most important aspects to me were both (man and wife) Senior Medical Examiners from San Diego -they had each done thousands of autopsies on shooting victims over 30 year careers.

I also lived near Memphis for a few years and worked in LE - the coroner there pointed out that the only difference in the wound track between a .38 spl LRN and a +P 125 Remington JHP (which the police used) was the JHP track was shorter - no bigger just shorter.

I did a court case back in KY on a homicide with that same bullet - I examined the gun, but not the bullet, but I did see the X-ray of the body - the bullet did not hit bone, and went about 9-10" and did not deform in any way. The victim died 4 days after he was shot.

This begs the question of synthetic gel. I look at this a lot, and Clear Ballistics gives from 2" to 6" of difference in penetration depending on the velocity and depending on the exact bullet and velocity - not much difference in expansion - mind you I use Clear Ballistics gel, it is just much simpler to use - but I do not depend on precisce penetration figures and certainly am not disappointed if a bullet penetrates 24" in it.

This is an interesting topic, I've studied it since I was 16 years old and I'm now 72 - I tend to get long winded, sorry 'bout that

Riposte

Excellent points. For most of my 74 years I have had debates about proper deer rifle cartridges. Everybody has an opinion and a story or 3 or 4 stories, I have a bunch too. The last 40 year or so, I only kill mature deer, no does or young bucks, nothing less than 10 points or an old deer with broken off points. So, most of my harvesting are large white tail or mule deer, lost of antelope and a few elk. I quit counting when I got to 100.

My point is, people believe what they want to believe about bullet performance. And they forget, that a 243 at 100 yards is not the same as one at 400 yards, I have killed beyond that once, a one shot kill, just never tried it again. Same with opinions about bullet performance on people. We read ballistics charts for deer ammo and magazine accounts about gun fights. They never talk about firing 40 rounds at a deer and where they hit it with a few rounds, but they talk about the 40 rounds in a gun fight as if they are relevant. Only hits count. And then only hits in certain area matter. And then there is a jello block wearing a T shirt....so, I am with you, I do not rely on the gello block numbers.

Much of my training was protective service operations starting in the military. On my last job we carried 45 ball. The reason, we had guys with long in the follow cars. We were trained that we needed 18 inches of penetration, the reason is no one faces you squarely when the shoot, they usually point the gun with that foot forward and the other to the rear, terrorists at least. So, if you take the side shot, you will hit the arm, enter the chest cavity, and hopefully thru the arm on the other side. Today, there is very little ammo that will do that, today if on that job I would go to 10mm.

The other reason we carried 45 ball, is because bad guys on foreign soil, shoot from cars or behind cars, 45 ball will always go thru one door, something 2, but 9mm will also, just does not have as much momentum.

Also, the FBI and police stats show that 2/3 of shootings take place outside at distance, a CCW person is at home, or fairly close, so their needs are a bit different.

So, I agree, I want more penetration that what the jello test program suggests. And for killing deer, the goal is the biggest exit hole I can get.

 

[riposte191145]

That is a cool story. What year was that? We got those bulletins monthly when I was in law enforcement. It finished degree in law enforcement in 1988 and had a long list of police shootings and most of the bizarre ones. Maybe it was after I retired. The big ones of course were the north LA shooting, Miami and a couple others. Do you recall any specifics about what the perp was hit with, etc? I do recall one where the robber sued the bank he robbed.

I think it was 1992. I recall Judge Webster was the head of the FBI then. The year before we had three rural LEOs killed and the guys in the Louisville FBI office came up with a plan to train and certify regional LE Instructors and so they started with Kentucky - I'm not sure what ever happened to the program - we graduated about 50 instructors but no one ever contacted me for any sort of training.- I've trained several agencies (even the instructors at the State DOCJT on occasion) but no one ever mentioned the FBI instructors to me (of course several agencies have graduates of the National Academy among their cadre).

As an aside, I noticed everyone treated me really well for the two weeks I was at the Academy. I blundered into the information that the Assistant Director was Jeff Higginbotham (my last name) - I never met him but, no doubt, he is a distant cousin

Riposte

 

[Ranger4]

I think it was 1992. I recall Judge Webster was the head of the FBI then. The year before we had three rural LEOs killed and the guys in the Louisville FBI office came up with a plan to train and certify regional LE Instructors and so they started with Kentucky - I'm not sure what ever happened to the program - we graduated about 50 instructors but no one ever contacted me for any sort of training.- I've trained several agencies (even the instructors at the State DOCJT on occasion) but no one ever mentioned the FBI instructors to me (of course several agencies have graduates of the National Academy among their cadre).

As an aside, I noticed everyone treated me really well for the two weeks I was at the Academy. I blundered into the information that the Assistant Director was Jeff Higginbotham (my last name) - I never met him but, no doubt, he is a distant cousin

Riposte

Thanks. There was a lot of ammo testing and new law enforcement products from 1986 forward, seems like everybody was excited and worried about their duty ammo. But as you will recall, many places like the NYPD were still carrying 38 special, usually with ball ammo.

About 1978 I was in DC for a 3 week investigator course, three of us went and made a vacation out of it, my first visit to DC. One of my buds at the time was the pres of a local chapter of the FOP and called up the DC patrol division and ask for a ride-a-long. I rode a weekend with an officer with about 10 years on the job, good guy. We responded to a robbery in progress, typical Friday night liquor store robbery, 3 perps, one with a shotgun. The officer only had a model 10, paper barrel and ball ammo. Despite that, we wheeled up and he ran into the store as the three bad guys ran out the back. Back then out of state officers could not carry in DC so I was unarmed. As we pulled in, he looked at me and said, "you do have a heater, right?" "No, OK, here cover me." And he handed me one of those 38 inch riot batons. Not sure I have ever felt so stupid as that night, sneaking around behind cars with a stick, and 3 bad guys inside, one had a shotgun, do not recall about the others. I only saw the one from a distance with the shotgun. No, I did not chase him. LOL I looked at his gun and ammo, the ammo was tarnished, no idea how long it had been in the gun. He was fascinated that back on the job I not only carried a magnum (357) but that I carried hollow points.

In 1979, I was involved in range training for a group in DC and the agency head firearms guy figured out I was more versed in guns and ammo from prior military and civilian LEO work than he was. He was given a supply of a new version of a prototype load that was created for the State Department Security teams. State was moving VIP's around Europe and the terrorist threat was everywhere. Remember Alexander Haig and the RPG attack in 1979. State wanted a 357 round that would blow up on a terrorist when fired from their 2.5 inch model 19s. Head shots were recommended, those guys had suicide vests, so no center of mass recommended. So they came up with the Federal S.D.L. Which was the first trial of the Hydra Shock, with the 125 grain bullet. My task was to take them to the range shoot them for accuracy, recoil, and any penetration tests I might come up with and then write a short summary from a street agent perspective. So, I took them out shot them at paper, into dry sand and wet sand, comparing them to the standard back the, the Federal 125 grain JHP. No difference. They did not put that run into production. They changed the size of the post I think. I still have a box and 6 rounds. The box is simply marked S.D. L., for State Department Load. If you Google it you will not find it, I was testing them in 1979, but the official release and patent was not until 1988. Here is what I found when I Googled. When I get into my ammo stash again I will take a pic of the ammo and the box. We were given 400 rounds for testing, in October/November 1979, and it was proposed by the State Department who we worked with, had nothing to do with the FBI at that time. But Google says it was created for the FBI, LOL. Agents were carrying that round in Europe at least 8 years before it hit the market.

I always find it interesting how wrong the internet can be. Another example for later, I was issued a special run of commander size 1911 in 45 acp. 2,000 of them were made for our agency. You will not find anything on the internet or any military TOE or any agency document where any government agency bought those or issued them. I suppose if one was found on foreign soil, they would not be traced, I dunno. And of course the reporting on gun battles often never shows up. I know of 2 incidents were US agents killed bad guys on foreign soil in a high profile event, and there has never been a word in the media. One was my boss and another worked for me. We had to smuggle guys out of country and hide them from the world. Of course, State and DOD and all involved have no information on anything like that.

There are lots of rounds fired by military and DEA training guys on the ground all over the world every day. Most will never be reported in the media. Most are will ball ammo and would be great for our research, but they will never be known, outside command and intel channels.

Out of curiosity I will try to find that 1992 shootout.

 

[riposte191145]

Ranger;

I think I have a box of those Scorpions and I have a couple of boxes of Albert's Ammo "Hydra Shock" bullets for handloading laying around.

Yep, some of the guys from KY in our class went into DC and didn't take their guns, they said they would never go back without one!

Myself, I sort of hit it off with the FBI Cadre and went on the weekend to tour Civil War battlefields with a couple of them. One was Wade Jackson who narrated that FBI film "Firefight". I recall stopping by the vault to check out my gun (I had one on me but I didn't check that one in and did not want to rock the boat).

When they didn't stop so I asked if were they exempt from having to check in their guns and they both said no...but I had mine so that should be enough - I'm not sure I believed them, but didn't make a point of it

Riposte