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Howdy. I have a question that ties in with Mitch Drews' thread, "1911 for defense in the wilderness." For a while now, I've used a Ruger Bisley in 45LC as a woods gun. It was a good package. A bit heavy, a bit less handy than I would have liked, but not terrible to pack all day. And gobs of power. And there's the problem. Some hand injuries and a worsening case of carpal tunnel and tendonitis have made all that power hard for my ailing wrists and hands to take.

So, I've been casting about for a new woods bumming gun that won't abuse me. If we drop down in power a bunch, there are two solid choices- the .357 Magnum and the 10mm Auto. Both are available in some convenient, handy, light-to-medium weight, field-tested platforms. They offer decent power. Not as much as I would like, but decent power nonetheless for the sorts of things that crop up in the woods. (And yes, I am in bear country- lower 48 grizz and black bear- but I don't sweat the bear thing. I carry pepper spray. And besides, I'm more worried about meth cooks and mountain lions).

The kicker is, I'm already set up for the 357. I have a couple of Smith revolvers. I also have dies, moulds, tons of brass, lots of loading data. If you were in my shoes, would you even consider the 10mm? What I am asking is whether it offers enough ballistic improvement over the 357 to justify a new gun, dies, moulds, etc.?

Let's assume each cartridge will live in its intended platform- 357 revos and 10mm autos. Let's also assume a four-inch revolver barrel and a four and a half-inch auto barrel. I will be handloading heavy-for-caliber bullets and going for maximum velocity. I don't fret about capacity and let's further assume that I will dedicate myself to learning whatever platform- Glock or Smith DA revolver- I choose.

Again, would I gain anything by switching from the 357 to the 10mm? Thanks everyone and happy holidays.
 

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I thought about this problem and it comes down to this. With a Glock 20, you can have 16 rouns of HOT 10mm from Double Tap or your own reloads. You can also carry 15 more rounds for a very quick change.

A S&W 27 you get 6 rounds.

Sorry the Glock 20 wins (even though I do not shoot mine very well).
 

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OR

Have your 45 Magna-Ported, tweaked, and load 335's at 1050fps.
Done.
 

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WB;
I think perhaps you are asking more than most of us are capable of discerning because we cannot know exactly how you "interface" with your firearm.

Right now I have a serious pain in my right hand from a series of load development sessions with various small .357s. It has persisted for over 2 months! Now I have not shot many .357s for about 25 years and instead usually use larger caliber handguns in both revolver and auto, yet I hurt myself with a 3" .357 magnum firing 125-140 gr. bullets (my son has not stopped smirking yet!).

Still shooting the autos does not hurt and even my big revolvers dont hurt (though I have much larger stocks on those than the little concealable .357s.

What I am saying is, due to personal physique or technique the opposite may be true for you.

Obviously, the auto holds more rounds (unless comparing a "single stack and one of those 8 shot S&W revolvers), is easier to keep in action and is more compact for the length of barrel. That said, they are probably not as "practically" accurate in the field (which does not mean they are not accurate enough).

Were it for self defense I would almost automatically say get the auto. But for field use, primarilly for hunting and only to be pressed into defensive service in remote areas, then the choice will have to be made by you by shooting them.

Just remember - a true measure of marksmanship included not only accuracy but of speed and power also. The .357 and 10mm are faily close in power (I would give a slight edge to a full powered 10mm load) so take yourself a 6" paper plate and shoot 5 shots as fast as you can keep the hits on the plate (do this both at 5 yards and about 25 yards since you are going to be outdoors) and compare the time it takes to get 5 hits (handguns are not "powerful" - multiple hits are often required before they "stop").

As a rule of thumb, we would like to get 5 hits in a second or less (from the ready not the leather) at 5 yards, though 2 seconds might be acceptable, more and we start to need a rifle. 3 times that slow at 25 would suffice (because the danger is less and it takes more time to get the hits). This is just a gauge, don't worry too much about the level, use it to compare how *you* shoot one gun to the other.

Good luck!!!!
Jim Higginbotham
 

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The .357 and 10mm both have a sharper recoil pulse than the .45 Colt. I would try some differant loads. Maybe some rubber grips and Magna porting. I personally would take a Ruger .45 loaded with some hot rounds ( Garrett cartridges or Corbons ) as a Bear gun.
 

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FIVE Shots In ONE Second Jim??

Hello! Can I have some of what you're smoking Jim?
As for the topic, I also vote for the 10mm in whatever platform you find most comfortable.
 

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Greetings Porter;
The only think I smoke is Winchester 231 - or equivilent :)
5 shots a second ain't too tough (I should have expanded on that as we use "McGivern" timing - timing from the first shot to the last on an electronic timer). Many (but not most) of our students can reach that in one day of training. I think most could if they practiced it regularly but most folks just go back to shooting 2 or 3 shot strings when they practice on their own.

Very best regards and Merry Christmas!
Jim Higginbotham
 

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I dont think its that out of this world, especially with quality and intensive instruction. Not trying to sound arrogant but I think I could probably go do 5 in a second and a half or so right now easy, and I bet I could do five in under a second after a day of training with JimH too (from what I hear hes quite a good instructor).

I really think the key is 5 yards.
 

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Full-boat .357s are fairly uncomfortable out of a four-inch package.

Because of its design and construction, a full-size Glock pistol is extremely mild-shooting for its caliber.

If I were trying to take it easy on my wrists, I'd have to go with the Glock 20.

However, if you're having that much trouble with your wrists and you're not really worried about stopping bears, why not a slightly milder caliber like .45 ACP, or maybe even 40 Skunk & Weasel? That would give you plenty of power for two-legged varmints, and tax your wrists less than the 10mm would.
 

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And A Joyous Christmas To All!

How Do JimH!
I'll pay to see 5 in one's with yerselfs scandium with full power .357s or anyone with full power 10mms in any platform short of a zoomie racegun!
I'm not unfamiliar with speed shooting and have done some timed runs with full power loads in several calibers determining that I ain't near close to Jerry M"s Guiness records but will admit I've not done the "light load" thing.
In my best IPSC days (daze?) my personal best was .8 from the holster (from the beep!) for a pair of A's @ 7yds many years ago.
I'm certainly not doubting some folks ability to hammer five rounds But, hitting the A zone?
The revolver requires a bit more coordination (alot more!) especially with real ammo.
 

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"...OTHER THAN THE DRAW..."

I can put five shots from some of my Redhawks (the 7.5" 357, and both the 41 and 44 5.5"'ers) into an A-zone in under a second.
IPSC, you know.

I know a few moon-shooters who can blow my Redhawkdoors off.
Way off.


ps I'm smoking heavily, as per usual practice
 

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Having lived in the city, and overlooked the 10mm for many
years.

I now use the CZ75 design Witness 10mm as my Woods Gun.
The 10mm seems far more controllable than my four-inch
model 66 ever was. I feel that it has twice as much power
than any 9mm or .357 load.

I'm shooting a 200 gr. XTP near 1,100 fps. Even faster with
my 155 handloads. With a 10mm you can load Mild (.40 S&W
velocity) or Wild (Mcnett level nuclear loads) or even in between.
The TEN is very easy to reload for . There seem to be more
factory loads coming out each year, along with new guns.

Carries like a pistol, but shoots like a rifle:) I'm told that many
Bear Hunters in MN and MICH have switched to a 10MM.

Guys here in Idaho who used to carry .41 and .44 magnums, tell me that the 10mm kills just as good or even better than the
big magnums. Kinda hard to believe that, but the 10mm would
probably penetrate more..and dump it's high energy very
rapidly. I know that when shooting it. You have to really
staple your targets to the boards...or the energy will rip
the paper in half! I don't find that with my other handgun
loads.
 

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Re: And A Joyous Christmas To All!

Porter Rockwell said:
In my best IPSC days (daze?) my personal best was .8 from the holster (from the beep!) for a pair of A's @ 7yds many years ago.
What part of from the ready dont you get?

What about 1 second 1st shot to last, 5 shots, at 5 yards is so unbelievable? Thats only a .2 split!
 

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My friend is a Park Ranger in Tennessee....... We grew up together and he always told me he carried a revolver for one reason. Reliability.... If you have a bad shell, with a revovler you just keep pulling the trigger.. I am sure this sounds dumb, but he says even a .1% chance is a category he does not want to fall in...

But I think he carries a larger cal then a .357...
 

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heavy framed .357. don't know anything usefull about the 10mm.
158 gr. SPs for trail use, but I'd rather have a .44 mag.I'd carry a .45 with FMJs backup. with a .357 backup, .25 and .22 mini
revolver.
:barf: :barf:
 

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MUS?

Hello, I understand the concept of tossing lead downrange but unlike your video game fantasy world we were talking about full powered ammo in real guns.
Ready shmeady already mus, reaction time from the ready position or holstered still weighs heavy on the time elapsed.
BTW, is this what's called the Bill Drill? If so, what exactly is the purpose of this training?
Thanks for the ideas tho, I'll give the scandium 5 shot another chance on the timer!
 

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Re: MUS?

Porter Rockwell said:
Ready shmeady already mus, reaction time from the ready position or holstered still weighs heavy on the time elapsed.
Last try: What about 1 second from first shot to last shot, five shots in one second on a target at 5 yards is so unbelievable?

Im sure with practice many people can do it.

If you dont think you can crank out five shots on a target 5 yards away in a second with full power .357 loads out of the lightest gun you could find you might be right.

:rolleyes:

Merry Christmas everyone.

;)
 

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Some interesting replys but I've had to tackle the same problem as our initial questioner. Having shot and bear hunted with 44 mags for years, I underwent surgery for carpel tunnel and had to quit shooting for several years. I live in the woods of the northeast and my conclusions are solely based on my direct experiences. As a sidearm, the 44 mag with 280 or more grains is definitely preferable. But the nerves in my arm cannot handle these full power loads. As for the 357 mag., I've seen well hit coyotes and raccoons walk off after being well tagged. This, also, has been the experience of many game wardens in my area who used to carry the 357. I carry the 10mm in the 1911 format (Delta Elites). My experience with the Glock 20 was not satisfactory for my purposes. Yes; it is well built, good night sites, impervious to most weather conditions, and reliable. What more could one ask? In my modest context, it is not combat-friendly. I shoot my Colts faster and with greater accuracy. Mine are fitted with 24lb. recoil springs; one is totally stock while the other has been customized. They have been 100% reliable for more than 8 years. My chosen ammo is the Corbon hunting loads and Winchester silvertips. There is also an ammo company in Texas that is making hot loads for the gun. The 10mm penetrates well, has wicked expansion and conveys shock quickly over a large area (albeit not being a 44). Although, it does not give me the security that my 44s once did, it has been battle-tested.
 
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