[45ofcourse]

Ive been using 45 super in a gcnm that I bought late 80s/early 90. New. I shoot 3-4 rounds of 45 super yearly to take 3-4 deer yearly. Gun has a 23# recoil spring, 25# main spring, and flat bottom fps. Spent brass lands within 7ft of me. Been using Buffalo Bore 255gn.
Question is, how does 45 super compare to 10mm 1911 as far as being hard or not on the gun? Are 10mm guns sprung similar to a 45 super gun? Off the rack 10mm runs fine but 45 super is looked at as too much.
My gold cup is stainless with about 30,000 round count. Its got less than 25 super through it. Dont own a 10mm. Yet.

 

[RickB]

I have the same springs and FPS in my .45 Super and 10mm. If you consider ejection distance (slide velocity) as an indicator of how hard the round is wearing the gun, I'd say 10mm is working a lot harder; ejection of full-power .45 Super is 6-8 feet, while even mid-range 10mm ejects farther than that, and full-power 10 goes 15-20 feet.

 

[45ofcourse]

And todays 10mm 1911s hold up fine? Seem like a lot more abuse than 45 super does.

 

[NoExpert]

The recoil spring plays little role in slowing the slide of a 1911 style pistol. A 16lb recoil spring slows the slide of a 1911 firing a .45 Auto 230g bullet at 850 ft/sec by about 3 ft/sec. A 23 lb recoil spring slows the slide of a 1911 firing a 10mm 200g bullet at 1350 ft/sec by about the same 3 ft/sec. The recoils spring's basic job is the store energy during recoil, then use that energy to return the slide to battery while feeding the next round.

Firing the pistol without a recoil spring will cause no more damage than firing it with its normally rated recoil spring. (However, doing so will turn the pistol into a single shot.) The slide of the pistol firing the .45 Auto round described above hits the frame at about 23 ft/sec. The slide of the pistol firing the 10mm round described above hits the frame at about 36 ft/sec. Not that much difference. Yes, over thousands of rounds, the 10mm pistol will wear more than the .45 Auto pistol. Note that the difference in final velocity between the slides firing the two different caliber rounds is about 13 ft/sec which is much higher than the mere 3 ft/sec the slide are slowed by the recoil springs.

Another point to ponder. When the .45 Auto round described above fires, the bullet reaches about 650 ft/sec in about 1/4 inch of travel (as it exits clear of the cartridge case) which takes it about 24 microseconds. That's a huge acceleration! The slide is hit with over 5 tons of force, accelerating it from 0 to about 20 ft./sec in that same 24 microseconds. Compare that kind of violent force to a puny recoil spring.

 

[Americade]

I agree, it is important to have that rated recoil spring. It'll cause more damage if it's not present.

 

[NoExpert]

I agree, it is important to have that rated recoil spring. It'll cause more damage if it's not present.

Check out this video:

 

[45ofcourse]

The recoil spring plays little role in slowing the slide of a 1911 style pistol. A 16lb recoil spring slows the slide of a 1911 firing a .45 Auto 230g bullet at 850 ft/sec by about 3 ft/sec. A 23 lb recoil spring slows the slide of a 1911 firing a 10mm 200g bullet at 1350 ft/sec by about the same 3 ft/sec. The recoils spring's basic job is the store energy during recoil, then use that energy to return the slide to battery while feeding the next round.

Firing the pistol without a recoil spring will cause no more damage than firing it with its normally rated recoil spring. (However, doing so will turn the pistol into a single shot.) The slide of the pistol firing the .45 Auto round described above hits the frame at about 23 ft/sec. The slide of the pistol firing the 10mm round described above hits the frame at about 36 ft/sec. Not that much difference. Yes, over thousands of rounds, the 10mm pistol will wear more than the .45 Auto pistol. Note that the difference in final velocity between the slides firing the two different caliber rounds is about 13 ft/sec which is much higher than the mere 3 ft/sec the slide are slowed by the recoil springs.

Another point to ponder. When the .45 Auto round described above fires, the bullet reaches about 650 ft/sec in about 1/4 inch of travel (as it exits clear of the cartridge case) which takes it about 24 microseconds. That's a huge acceleration! The slide is hit with over 5 tons of force, accelerating it from 0 to about 20 ft./sec in that same 24 microseconds. Compare that kind of violent force to a puny recoil spring.

So knowing all that (I do now. Thanks) why is the gun world so fearful of a properly sprung 1911 in 45 super? Or is it just internet nonsense thats been repeated until believed?

 

[Magnumite]

The 45 SMC cartridge was developed almost parallel to the 45 Super. The 45 S/SMC may be loaded to very similar energy levels. The 10mm and 45 S/SMC both heavily loaded will develop very similar energy levels. The 45 S will develop about 8000 - 9000 psi less pressure. It would stand to reason the wear and tear will be similar with the 45 being expected to yield slightly less wear due to the lower oressures. RickB’s observation of brass ejection was interesting. It would interesting to know the advertised energy of the 45 S ammo he shoots compared to that of his 10mm ammo.

 

[NoExpert]

I can only tell you that the math is simple and anyone who can add, subtract multiply and divide can figure it out for themselves. Why people think what they do is a mystery to me. If you watch the news, you can see all sorts of people with strange ideas.

I was once told that if an adult male was hit in the finger by a .45 Auto bullet, the force would knock him down. My response was that there is no single small arms round (up to an including the 50 BMG) that has enough force to knock down an adult male. People "learn" all sorts of stuff from watching movies!

Here is a detailed analysis of recoil, if you are interested:

1911 dynamics (John Bercovitz)

 

[NoExpert]

The 45 SMC cartridge was developed almost parallel to the 45 Super. The 45 S/SMC may be loaded to very similar energy levels. The 10mm and 45 S/SMC both heavily loaded will develop very similar energy levels. The 45 S will develop about 8000 - 9000 psi less pressure. It would stand to reason the wear and tear will be similar with the 45 being expected to yield slightly less wear due to the lower pressures. RickB’s observation of brass ejection was interesting. It would interesting to know the advertised energy of the 45 S ammo he shoots compared to that of his 10mm ammo.

All that's needed is the bullet weight (in pounds) and muzzle velocity (in ft/sec). Multiplying those two together and dividing by the total weight of the slide and barrel (about 1.08 pounds) will yield the approximate slide velocity at the beginning of recoil (in ft/sec).

 

[g26s239]

The 45 Super I fired when I was into that was from a Glock 21w/6" KKM barrel and 30 w/standard barrel lenth both sprung at about 21#s IIRC. The 10mm was from a Delta Elite. In the Delta Elite I used a 20# variable recoil spring and slowly stoned an EGW 45 flat bottom firing pin stop to fit the 10mm ejector.
The slide w/bushing for the DE weighed 13.4 ounces, the Glock 30 is 15.6 ounces and Glock 21 is 16.7 ounces so the heavier glock slides have the mass taking up more control of slide velocity but that DE still ran fine with 180 grains @ 1300 fps nominal with the flat fps giving that slight momentary delay of unlocking. At the time I got rid of the DE it was because I had two Glocks, two HKs and a Smith 625 that could have used 45 Super so no need for 10mm.
Now I just figure anything more than 45+P can do will get a 44 magnum or bigger.
I don't believe the higher pressure on a 10mm breechface is much of concern because the gun is built for it. OTOH you have a 45 Super already so unless that 10mm itch MUST be scratched than going with the heavier top end bullets sounds better.

 

[45ofcourse]

I can only tell you that the math is simple and anyone who can add, subtract multiply and divide can figure it out for themselves. Why people think what they do is a mystery to me. If you watch the news, you can see all sorts of people with strange ideas.

I was once told that if an adult male was hit in the finger by a .45 Auto bullet, the force would knock him down. My response was that there is no single small arms round (up to an including the 50 BMG) that has enough force to knock down an adult male. People "learn" all sorts of stuff from watching movies!

Here is a detailed analysis of recoil, if you are interested:

1911 dynamics (John Bercovitz)

Im on the road. Reading that on my phone isnt looking good. I am going to read it on a larger screen when able.

 

[45ofcourse]

The 45 Super I fired when I was into that was from a Glock 21w/6" KKM barrel and 30 w/standard barrel lenth both sprung at about 21#s IIRC. The 10mm was from a Delta Elite. In the Delta Elite I used a 20# variable recoil spring and slowly stoned an EGW 45 flat bottom firing pin stop to fit the 10mm ejector.
The slide w/bushing for the DE weighed 13.4 ounces, the Glock 30 is 15.6 ounces and Glock 21 is 16.7 ounces so the heavier glock slides have the mass taking up more control of slide velocity but that DE still ran fine with 180 grains @ 1300 fps nominal with the flat fps giving that slight momentary delay of unlocking. At the time I got rid of the DE it was because I had two Glocks, two HKs and a Smith 625 that could have used 45 Super so no need for 10mm.
Now I just figure anything more than 45+P can do will get a 44 magnum or bigger.
I don't believe the higher pressure on a 10mm breechface is much of concern because the gun is built for it. OTOH you have a 45 Super already so unless that 10mm itch MUST be scratched than going with the heavier top end bullets sounds better.

I agree. 10mm not necessary for me. Ive only had pass throughs on whitetail. 2 holes every time. Just couldnt get my head around how manufacturers can build a 1911 to withstand 10mm but 45 super was to much for a 1911 to take. Never made sense to me.

 

[Intercessor]

If I were to shoot a lot of 45 Super, I would use one of the full size H&K 45 USP variants, Standard, Tactical, Expert, Elite, or obviously the Mark23. With any of those 5 pistols, re-springing is not required with the Recoil Reduction System built into the pistols. Or maybe step up to a Gun Crafters .50 caliber 1911...just thinking out loud here...

 

[RickB]

So knowing all that (I do now. Thanks) why is the gun world so fearful of a properly sprung 1911 in 45 super? Or is it just internet nonsense thats been repeated until believed?

Some people think a 30# recoil spring is a ".45 Super conversion", so there's a lot of hooey out there.
.45 Super isn't even a high pressure cartridge, topping out at 28k psi, when .38 Super and 10mm both run at about 35k. I think the belief that stiff recoil springs are a good thing, is a bigger concern than running a 1911 at 28k psi.

 

[Magnumite]

All that's needed is the bullet weight (in pounds) and muzzle velocity (in ft/sec). Multiplying those two together and dividing by the total weight of the slide and barrel (about 1.08 pounds) will yield the approximate slide velocity at the beginning of recoil (in ft/sec).

I understand you there. However, we don’t know the velocity nor energy (can be mathematically calculated to velocity) numbers. Being RickB sprung both pistols the same I dare say both loads were similar though the ejection comparison is curious.m

RickB, what 10 and 45S loads do you use?

 

[Magnumite]

For those interested in a comparison perspective and a given application:

Comparing the 10 mm, 450 SMC and .45 Super for Predator Defense

A noted handgun expert wrote that his wife has used a .45, 260 grain, lead Semi Wad Cutter at 900 FPS to take five Mule Deer and his son has used the same load to take a nice Mule Deer Buck …

www.marksmanshipmatters.com

 

[RickB]

I understand you there. However, we don’t know the velocity nor energy (can be mathematically calculated to velocity) numbers. Being RickB sprung both pistols the same I dare say both loads were similar though the ejection comparison is curious.m

RickB, what 10 and 45S loads do you use?

Warm but not HOT loads of AA #7 for both. 180@1200 for 10mm, 230@1175 for Super.

 

[Magnumite]

Thanks, RickB. Close energy figures for sure. Chasing brass is the one thing I don’t like about shooting my 10.

 

[g26s239]

For those interested in a comparison perspective and a given application:

Comparing the 10 mm, 450 SMC and .45 Super for Predator Defense

A noted handgun expert wrote that his wife has used a .45, 260 grain, lead Semi Wad Cutter at 900 FPS to take five Mule Deer and his son has used the same load to take a nice Mule Deer Buck …

www.marksmanshipmatters.com

About the USP being rated for 45 Super use as mentioned in the article, I called HK in 2006 shortly after I got my USP and when I asked specifically about Super Jeff Swisher told me "No limitations". My USP has a slide weight of 14 ounces, slightly heavier than the 13.4 to 13.8* ounces of a typical 5" 1911 slide with bushing weighed as part of the reciprocating mass. The USP Elite has a slide weight of 15.1 ounces. I never have used Super in my USPs but I am confident they can take it but my USPc is one I would not use it in in the unlikely event I take up 45 Super again.

*Of those brands I have owned and weighed.