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70 vs 80

7.8K views 81 replies 31 participants last post by  cygnus58  
#1 ·
Series 70 vs Series 80
What are the differences between these two systems?
And through your experience which one is the better design.
What are some negative features of these two models.
 
#2 ·
Are you really that new to 1911s? Although not 100% accurate as to the original definition of the terms, Series 70 generally means a 1911 without a firing pin drop safety, while Series 80 means a 1911 that has one.

Arguing over the merits of each would quickly result in a 20 page-long thread. I have guns with both systems and there is no functional difference in reliability or trigger pull, although I prefer Series 70 and older guns simply because I'm a 1911 purist.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Are you really that new to 1911s? Although not 100% accurate as to the original definition of the terms, Series 70 generally means a 1911 without a firing pin drop safety, while Series 80 means a 1911 that has one.

Arguing over the merits of each would quickly result in a 20 page-long thread.
As it has before…more than once.

And technically, these are Colt-specific designations, and post-JMB designations as well (I.e., not appearing in his patents). I’m keeping my Wilson’s, so I need not worry.😁😁😁
 
#5 ·
Nothing wrong with asking a question.

In a nutshell, dsk is right. Series 80 has a firing pin safety that prevents the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled. Ignoring the necessity and value of this system, I’d say the only real downside is that the levers and plunger add drag to the trigger pull. Cylinder and Slide has a nitride coated series 80 parts kit that they advertise as removing 1 pound from the trigger pull. In the single example that I tried on my Colt Competition, it reduced the trigger pull by 14 ounces.
 
#6 · (Edited)
So... Sorry, I am very new to the 1911. I recently fell in love with this gun and I'm trying to learn from people who have hands on knowledge and opinions rather than decipher a Wikipedia rendering.
So... am I to assume that at a certain date Colt switched the 1911 to the 80s series design and all guns made since by Colt (1911) have this firing pin drop safety, and all 1911 made before that date did not and could be classified as 70 series?
Don't get put out with me. I'll try not to ask too many stupid questions.
I'll save my real stupid questions for the local gun shop and pick their brains until they fire a warning shot over my head.
 
#7 · (Edited)
So... Sorry, I am very new to the 1911. I recently fell in love with this gun and I'm trying to learn from people who have hands on knowledge and opinions rather than decipher a Wikipedia rendering.
So... am I to assume that at a certain date Colt switched the 1911 to the 80s series design and all guns made since by Colt (1911) have this firing pin drop safety, and all 1911 made before that date did not and could be classified as 70 series?
Don't get put out with me. I'll try not to ask too many stupid questions.
Yes, Colt installed the added mechanism to response to the calls (mostly by gun-ban types) to add more safety measures.

I suppose if, after disassembling and reassembling a Colt Series 80 1911, a person was just as happy with it as with the earlier design, then he’s likely good to go with it.

But many people decide otherwise. When more mechanisms are added, it’s hard to assert that there’s no possibility of something going wrong (even if just a tiny part becoming lost during disassembly).

And for those who fear that JMBs design is not safe enough, there are other mainstream solutions, such as a heavier FP spring (Wilson Combat’s answer) or a Titanium FP. As well as alternative mechanical safety designs. (S&W uses an alternative mechanism, one they chose over the Colt mechanism, but there’s an associated cost…specifically, their instruction manuals advise against disassembling the gun (beyond a simple slide removal), even for cleaning…they obviously fear many customers won’t be able to properly re-assemble all of the tiny parts).

But for those who feel safer with the added mechanism(s), there it is, available for their purchase.
 
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#8 ·
Here is the long, drawn-out answer to your question, copied from an old post I made in the Colt FAQ thread:

Series 70 vs. Series 80

The term "Series 70" originally referred to the spring-collet "Accurizor" barrel bushing and matching reverse-tapered barrel used in Government Model and Gold Cup pistols starting in 1970. Prior pistols became known as "pre-Series 70" guns, and since the collet bushing was not used in the Commander models there were technically never any Series 70 Commanders. The collet bushing was finally phased out around 1988 or so, several years into Series 80 production.

The aftermarket began using the terms "Series 70" and "Series 80" to identify parts they offered for pistols with or without a firing pin safety, such as extractors and firing pins. Eventually the use of "Series 70" to identify any 1911 without a firing pin safety caught on and even Colt began using it in that manner as well, calling their Series 70 reproduction, Wiley Clapp models and various WW1/WW2 replicas by that name even though none of them use a collet bushing.

**

Historical background:


Colt is the original manufacturer of 1911 pattern pistols, having made versions for both the military as well as commercial market since regular production began in January 1912. The commercial versions were nearly identical to the military ones, differing only in markings and finish. Following World War Two military production ended, but the commercial guns remained in production with only minor changes such as deletion of the lanyard loop and a larger thumb safety shelf. These pistols are known to collectors as "pre-Series 70" guns, as they pre-dated the Series 70 guns introduced in 1970. It was during this year that Colt introduced the first major design change to the Government Model in nearly 50 years. In an attempt to improve the accuracy of production guns the barrel bushing was redesigned, along with the barrel. In this system the bushing utilized four spring-steel "fingers" that gripped the enlarged diameter of the muzzle end of the barrel as the gun returned to battery. By tightening the fit of barrel and bushing in this manner Colt was able to improve the accuracy of the average production gun, without going through the expense of hand fitting the older solid barrel bushing to the barrel and slide. Models using the new barrel/bushing setup were the Government Model and Gold Cup, which were designated the "Mark IV Series 70" or simply Series 70 pistols. It should be noted that the shorter 4 1/4" barreled Commander pistols retained the use of the older solid bushing design and thus were never designated Series 70 pistols, although one hears the term erroneously applied to Commanders from time to time. The new "collet" bushing (as it came to be known) generally worked quite well, however it was occasionally prone to breakage (see post #3 below) so it was eventually phased out around 1988 as Colt reverted back to using the solid bushing in all of their pistols.

The single biggest change to the 1911 design came about in 1983, when Colt introduced the "MK IV Series 80" pistols. These guns incorporated a new firing pin block safety system, where a series of internal levers and a plunger positively blocked the firing pin from moving until the trigger was pressed, thus eliminating the possibility of the gun discharging if dropped onto a hard surface or struck hard. In this instance however, ALL of Colt's 1911-pattern pistols incorporated the new design change so even the Commander and Officer's ACP pistols became known as Series 80 guns. With the previous paragraph in mind, it is important to know that from 1983 until 1988 the early Government Model and Gold Cup Series 80 pistols used the Series 70-type barrel and bushing as well, although they were known only as Series 80 guns.

There was one other design change made to the Series 80 guns as well, and that was a re-designed half-cock notch. On all models the notch was changed to a flat shelf instead of a hook, and it is located where half-cock is engaged just as the hammer begins to be pulled back. This way the half-cock notch will still perform its job of arresting the hammer fall should your thumb slip while manually cocking the pistol, yet there is no longer a hook to possibly break and allow the hammer to fall anyway. With the notch now located near the at-rest position, you can pull the trigger on a Series 80 while at half-cock and the hammer WILL fall. However, since it was already near the at-rest position the hammer movement isn't sufficient to impact the firing pin with any amount of force.

Regarding the "clone" guns (1911-pattern pistols made by manufacturers other than Colt), so far Para-Ordnance, SIG, Auto Ordnance, Remington, and Taurus have adopted Colt's Series 80 or a similar firing pin block system as well. Kimber's Series II pistols and most models of S&W 1911s have a FP safety also, but it is a different system than Colt's and is disabled by depressing the grip safety. No manufacturers aside from Colt ever adopted the Series 70 collet bushing/barrel arrangement, so technically there are no "Series 70" clone guns. What this means is that design-wise most of them share commonality with the pre-Series 70 guns, using neither the firing pin block NOR the collet bushing. Because of this it is important to remember that only Colt Series 80 models, and a couple of "clone" 1911 makers use a firing pin block. Older Colts and most other clone guns lack a firing pin safety and can possibly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the gun is dropped on a hard surface, or if struck a blow hard enough to allow the firing pin to jump forward and impact the primer of the loaded round. Typically, use of an extra-power firing pin return spring and/or a titanium firing pin will significantly improve safety in these older designs. By the way, for the past decade Colt has been producing new pistols out of their Custom Shop that lack the S80 firing pin safety. These are the Gunsite and Wiley Clapp models, WW1 and WW2 GI replicas, and a reintroduced original-style Series 70 in both blued and stainless steel that should appeal to 1911 purists. Interestingly, all of these use a solid barrel bushing, so mechanically they are more similar to the original pre-Series 70 models despite being advertised by Colt as having a "Series 70 firing system".

Regarding the controversy involving getting a decent trigger pull on a Series 80 gun, it is only of importance if the gunsmith attempts to create a super-light pull (under four pounds) for target or competition use. In defense/carry guns where a four-pound or heavier pull is necessary, the added friction of the Series 80 parts adds little or nothing to the pull weight or feel. A good gunsmith can do an excellent trigger job on a Series 80 and still leave all the safety parts in place, although he will probably charge a little more than if the gun were a Series 70 since there are more parts to work with. But any gunsmith who tells you that you can't get a good trigger on a Series 80 without removing the safety parts is likely either lazy or incompetent.
 
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#11 ·
BTW the easiest way to tell if a 1911 has a firing pin safety of some sort is to retract the slide and look underneath near the disconnector cutout. If you see a small spring-loaded plunger smiling back at you it's got a FPS.
 
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#16 ·
I own three Series 80 Colts. All three have 3.5 lb triggers. Two were like that out of the box and the third after I replaced the hammer. While S80 pistols with horrible factory triggers certainly exist, it's due to Colt's terrible QC during the 1980s and '90s and not because of the safety system. You don't run into issues with the safety messing with the pull weight or feel until you try to drop the pull down to 3 lbs and under, which you would only want on a competition gun anyway.

As for complicating the reassembly process, I've done it so many times I can do it in my sleep. The plunger levers are only slightly more problematic, and after you get the hang of lining up the parts with the sear and hammer pins it's easy. The plunger in the slide actually assists with reassembly as you can use the plunger to hold the firing pin down while you reinsert the firing pin stop plate, which on a Series 70 pistol can be dangerous as the firing pin wants to shoot back out under heavy spring tension and smack you in the face.

The biggest reason why people hate the Series 80 is because it reminds them of how today's lawsuit-happy society often dictates modern firearms design, like the "Hillary hole" in new S&W revolvers. The truth is that the 1911 has always been known to fire if dropped and Colt tried fixing the issue way back in the 1930s with the Swartz safety. For reasons unknown however they only made pistols with the Swartz safety for a few years and abandoned it during World War Two. Kimber picked up the system with their Series II pistols but it has been problematic for some people, which might explain why Colt stopped using it.
 
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#21 ·
The biggest reason why people hate the Series 80 is because it reminds them of today's lawsuit-happy society dictating modern firearms design. The truth is the 1911 has always been known to fire if dropped and Colt tried fixing the issue way back in the 1930s with the Swartz safety...
Even without lawsuits involved, is it too much to ask for a firearm to be designed so it only fires when owner pulls a trigger and not under any other commotion or impact?
I don't really buy the lawsuit angle since on a civilian market you can get any number of guns without drop safety - from 1911s to 2011s to CZs. It is the LE and mil who dictate that because in 2022 one cannot bring a pistol to a professional market without a functional drop safety. If it is not there, you're not considered. If it is not functional, you pay one way or another. SIG ****ed around and found out.




@John Wick
Below is a list of members of SAAMI that administers voluntary standards for commercial firearms in regards to drop safety

Voluntary Industry Performance Standards Criteria for Evaluation of New Firearms Designs Under Conditions of Abusive Mishandling for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

Sponsor
Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc.
Members
Beretta USA Corporation
Broadsword Group LLC
Browning Arms Company
CCI/Speer Ammunition
Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC
COR-BON/Glaser LLC
Federal Cartridge Company
Fiocchi of America, Inc.
Glock
Hodgdon Powder Company
Hornady Manufacturing Company
Kahr Arms
Marlin Firearms Company
North American Arms, Inc.
O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.
Olin Corporation/Winchester Division
Remington Arms Company, LLC
Savage Arms, Inc.
SIG SAUER, Inc.
Smith & Wesson Holding Corp.
St. Marks Powder, Inc.
Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc.
Taurus Holdings, Inc.
Weatherby, Inc.


Now, check it against jtq's excellent post to see how many off that list who don't produce 1911 with FP safeties have volunteered to participate in the drop safety workforce.
Oops. None. Could be something, could be nothing, you decide.


Alchemy - no firing pin safeties
Caspian - no firing pin safeties
Colt - Some Series 80 firing pin safety models, some without a firing pin safety
Dan Wesson - no firing pin safeties
Ed Brown - no firing pin safeties
Fusion - no firing pin safeties
Guncrafter - no firing pin safeties
Kimber - Some Swartz-type firing pin safeties (those designated with a "II"), some without a firing pin safety
Les Baer - no firing pin safeties
Nighthawk - no firing pin safeties
ParaUSA - Series 80 firing pin safety
SIGSauer - Series 80 firing pin Safety
Smith and Wesson - some with a Mochack firing pin safety, most without a firing pin safety
Springfield Armory - no firing pin safeties
Staccato - no firing pin safeties
Taurus - Series 80 firing pin safety
Wilson Combat - no firing pin safeties
 
#17 ·
Really a box stock Model 70 trigger and safety set up doesn't leave a whole lot of room for improvement. There are explanations on why a series 80 isn't so bad. I have a 1911 Kimber with a Schwartz safety. My 1911 70 series are certainly much better than the Kimber Schwartz safety. One of the most desirable features of a 1911 is it's original trigger design. And when I do a little trigger work I want to just work on a simple 1911 trigger. Not a 80 series trigger and certainly not a Schwartz safety. Just a simple and nice proven 70 series trigger.
 
#20 ·
As for the merits of the Series 80 firing pin safety, I don't believe I have ever heard of a properly installed one actually fail in operation. They just happen to be a pain to reinstall the two tiny levers in the frame of the gun. There is also nothing preventing you from installing the parts incorrectly in which case, gun will not function.

I have a couple guns with and a couple guns without the Series 80 FP safeties. A couple of them from different manufacturers (Colt and Kimber) came from the factory with trigger pulls within an ounce of each other at around 3 pounds 10 ounces. One has the S80 safety, the other does not. I had a trigger on a Colt Gold Cup that was sitting at 3 pounds 1 ounce and quite reliable until I decided to increase the weight a bit.
The point that I am getting at is that unless you know what gun you have in your hand, I am not convinced it is possible to tell whether there is a S80 safety installed.

- Ivan.
 
#23 ·
Most of my 1911s are series 70. My one series 80 is a Kimber, which has a firing pin safety that works off the grip safety; so no effect on the trigger. The Kimber has had to return to the factory to repair the firing pin safety which did cause the gun to malfunction. The repair was kinda' funky but it does run well now and is one of my favorites.
All things considered I'll take the series 70 every time.
It's worth mentioning that "series 80" firing pin safeties are not all the same. Some work off the trigger, which often ruins the superb 1911 trigger. I think this is where the series 80 got the black eye. Some, like my Kimber, don't work off the trigger, which is better but still, IMO an unnecessary complication which can cause malfunctions.
 
#24 ·
Most of my 1911s are series 70. My one series 80 is a Kimber, which has a firing pin safety that works off the grip safety; so no effect on the trigger. The Kimber has had to return to the factory to repair the firing pin safety which did cause the gun to malfunction. The repair was kinda' funky but it does run well now and is one of my favorites.
All things considered I'll take the series 70 every time.
It's worth mentioning that "series 80" firing pin safeties are not all the same. Some work off the trigger, which often ruins the superb 1911 trigger. I think this is where the series 80 got the black eye. Some, like my Kimber, don't work off the trigger, which is better but still, IMO an unnecessary complication which can cause malfunctions.
I had a Kimber Raptor new out of the box it wouldn’t even run ball ammo. Stove pipe one after the other. Returned it and I’m done with the brand. For $1,700 it should Eat all ammo for breakfast


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#26 · (Edited)
Okay I Googled this - "In 1983 Colt released the Series 80 1911. This too was named after the decade it was released. The biggest difference in the Series 80 was the addition of a firing pin safety. This safety is actuated by the trigger itself making the gun "safer"."

I've read that the Series 80 hammer does not have a half cock shelf to catch the hammer if it were to try to follow the slide, while the Series 70 has this feature.
Is this accurate info?

Can the entire hammer/sear/disconnector assembly of a Series 80 simply be swapped out with a custom aftermarket set, or does one still need to use the filler plate?
 
#31 ·
I've read that the Series 80 hammer does not have a half cock shelf to catch the hammer if it were to try to follow the slide, while the Series 70 has this feature.
Is this accurate info?

Can the entire hammer/sear/disconnector assembly of a Series 80 simply be swapped out with a custom aftermarket set, or does one still need to use the filler plate?
I've never met a 1911 (Series 80 or otherwise) that didn't have a half-cock notch in the hammer.

You can geld the Series 80 of its intended function, but I wouldn't bother.
 
#29 · (Edited)
My .02, almost all of my 1911’s are series 70 including my 6” longslide Kimber target which is a pretty nice gun now after some tweaking/tuning (that 10%) , All of my Guns have needed some tweaking/tuning to run correctly, mostly the extractor with the only exception being my Ed Brown Executive which has just ran perfectly from the start.

The only series 80 I have is my Sig Sauer STX which is built in their Custom Shop. The trigger was ok (little gritty, which is normal) out of the box but after taking it completely apart and cleaning & deburring everything and now the trigger is a nice clean 3.5lb trigger which is as nice as any I have including my Les Baer TRS and my Ed Brown Executive 9mm.

My buddy just bought a Kimber Custom II which has the Swartz/Schwartz 😁 safety and it seems to function well but also a little gritty in imho, but he only has about 100rds through it, it still isn’t all that bad. So in my opinion just buy what you like & enjoy it. Life’s to short !
 
#32 ·
Free, I started to neuter my Sig STX of its series 80 parts initially but after a thorough cleaning/deburring/stoning it felt & worked as well as anything else I’ve experienced so I figured why bother, it just works !

But I will add that things were pretty burr’d up initially, particularly the series 80 parts that are stamped out.
 
#35 ·
I'd argue that it's difficult to not have an argument over anything 😆 Thanks for the link...I hadn't seen that.

I'm sure that's why Springfield uses lighter titanium firing pins...but I still replace them with dangerous steel ones o_O
 
#40 · (Edited)
What’s not yet said this time around (unless I missed it) is the practical effectiveness of the very simple “solutions” of a stronger firing pin spring, usually paired with a strong mainspring, (found in Wilson Combat 1911s, among probably most other high end 1911s) or a Ti FP (common on California models).

Some posts in this thread might lead a newcomer to incorrectly presume that 1911s built by well-regarded builders, but ”lacking” the mechanical levers, plungers, FP blocks, etc., are prone to fire if dropped. Perhaps even to mistakenly conclude that such builders were unconcerned with drop safety.

Such is often not true. It’s certainly not true regarding Wilson, my primary 1911 builder. I wouldn’t be surprised to find stronger FP springs in most other high end 1911s
 
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#42 ·
What’s not yet said this time around (unless I missed it) is the practical effectiveness of ...
I think there is also a difference between "drop safe" and perhaps "practical drop safe".

I think every manufacturer of 1911's that skips a firing pin safety mechanism probably uses an extra power firing pin spring and whatever other technique available to avoid unintended discharges with a dropped pistol. However, none of these work arounds will be as effective at stopping a dropped 1911 from firing as a 1911 with firing pin block.

I tend to believe the likely-hood of me dropping a 1911 directly at the correct angle, from the appropriate height to cause a round to fire is about the same likely-hood as a Series 80 firing pin safety locking up when I don't want it to.
 
#51 ·
You may be confusing firing pin safety with drop safety. But even if not, I'm not trying to say that handgun evolution has not made them safer to use. What I am saying is that, with a grip safety and a thumb safety, a firing pin safety that blocks the firing pin is not needed. There is no way to make a gun idiot proof.
The best gun safety is between your ears.
 
#54 ·
Nobody seems to have mentioned Ruger 1911 pistols in this discussion. The two I have do not have a firing pin safety and use a standard size firing pin. There must be something about Ruger's 1911 pistols that does not appeal to people. I like mine just fine.
 
#56 · (Edited)
For heavens sake. Buy a 1911 with a Series 80 safety. And maybe, if you get lucky, you may be able to buy a 1911 80 series safety combined with a Shwartz (spelling) safety. Surely these to combined safety systems combined together will make your 1911 the 800 pound gorilla in the forest. The drama will be over.

Or you can simply buy a 70 series like me.
 
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#59 ·
Gun people tend to be just as lazy as everyone else. I keep seeing people here talk about their Series 70 Springfields and their Series 80 Kimbers. Once I even saw a Gunbroker auction for an old 1918-vintage Colt where the seller stated it was a Series 70. If you took a time machine back to 1918 France and told an American Doughboy in the trench that his 1911 was a Series 70 he think you'd finally snapped and needed to be taken to the rear with all the other shell-shocked soldiers.
 
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