Idiot cop.

 

correction, idiot person.

 

Typical for clearing a gun before removing a loaded magazine, at least self shooting the hand.

 

Firearms training today is pretty much a joke unless you seek out a professional school.

 

Yeah, not so ready to go there, so let's refrain from the broad brush-strokes.

Whatever level of training this rookie officer had, the incident is solely ON HIM.

I'm of the "you can lead a horse to water..." school of thought on this one. Of course, my last department (for which I was a lead firearms instructor, twelve years), had top-notch training. But no matter how great your curriculum is, how much classroom and range time everyone gets, how high your qual standards are, the reality is that, six months down the road after the academy, every officer will default to his/her own personal level of common sense, critical thinking and commitment.

 

Drop mag...gun safe. Pull trigger to remove slide....ouch. I think a step was missed.

 

Years ago, a PA State Police Sgt and firearms safety instructor shot his pregnant wife (who was divorcing him!) in the head while cleaning his Glock.

Odd how the victims, or targets, never have a cleaning rod thru them?

 

Like I said yesterday, stupid mistakes can happen to anyone... even cops, soldiers, or firearms trainers. Never allow your handling of a firearm to become so casual and complacent that you start forgetting that it's a deadly weapon.

 

I have been shooting maybe a year but always keep finger off trigger when holding a gun.
That said, if a particular gun requires the trigger be pulled as part of the dismantling process, why does one not practice that like everything else? I realize not everyone cleans their guns or takes them apart often, but my habit is to clean the gun everytime I shoot, day of shooting, and I shoot at least once a week. I would think an officer would shoot at least as often as the gun for him is essential equipment not just a hobby. So what gives?
I mean, on guns like my PSA (glock clone) that require trigger pull to dismantle, I take out the mag, clear the slide once - then again sev. times. I should hope this habit always serves me well.
I do not want a hole in myself or anyone else.

 

I wanna make some reference to Alex Baldwin….

 

Professional gun hater?

 

Easy boy….

 

Why don't people shoot the sofa, coffee table or just the floor or wall when cleaning guns??? It sure seems like a LOT of convenient acidental deaths occur when cleaning loaded guns. I'd like to read of a ND where just the coffee table was damaged, not a "friend" or pregnant wife, or cheating girlfriend.

 

At least when “Bubba Shot the Jukebox“,he was man enough to admit to done did do it. With “reckless hell, I hit where I was aiming”

 

Sig guys hoping it wasn't a P320

Very sad story. I'll pray for the officers families.

 

Sig guys hoping it wasn't a P320

[sarcasm]Well, it’s about a $10 million dollar lawsuit AND the gun’s fault if it was…[/sarcasm]

 

I make sure I check at least two times before I feel safe with any firearm to be considered empty.

 

The abuse California has heaped on their cops over the last two years? Blaming them for everything, giving them credit for nothing, massive cuts in their budget, just to punish them for the acts of a few. Politicians and Prosecutors refusing to prosecute criminals and blame cops instead, cops jobs just becoming increasingly dangerous for no gratitude or reward what-so-ever. Who would stay on this job, California cops are probably on the wait list with the rest of citizens for a u-hual to move out of the leftist gone wild playground.

This guy is young enough he is likely a rookie.

Looks like California is getting the cops they deserve.

 

Complacency breeds failure. Tragic.

 

As an old retired investigator, I see some glaring things missing here, anyone notice? Facts. Was he drinking? Why was another young man age 20 present. Were they cleaning guns together? Why are you cleaning a gun with another person present? How many other people were present? Do these two guys have a history? Brother in law? Stranger, buddy? Why was he cleaning his gun at 5:45 on a Friday night? Anybody else here clean their guns on Friday nights?

I have lots more questions, but suffice it to say there is more to this story.

 

...I have lots more questions, but suffice it to say there is more to this story.

One thing for sure, his career is over.

 

These kind of things really dont surprise me. Those of you in California, how stupid are motorcycle riders riding the zipper between moving traffic? People changing flat tires on the fog line instead if moving the car into the grass a bit. EVERYONE texting, emailing, facebooking while driving. Warning labels on every single product you buy. Lots of stupid out there. Lots of careless out there.

 

These kind of things really dont surprise me. Those of you in California, how stupid are motorcycle riders riding the zipper between moving traffic? …

This bit of your comment caught my attention. Most recent stats show that when "lane sharing" (AKA, lane splitting, filtering, zippering, white lining and probably more) is done within suggested guidelines, it's safer for the cyclists than when they ride in the traffic lane. Getting rear‒ended on a bike can be fatal.

The Berkeley study looked at nearly 1,000 lane-splitting accidents and concluded that lane splitting is reasonably safe when done at no more than 15 miles per hour over the speeds of surrounding vehicles.

California Lane Splitting Law

 

Years ago, a local LEO shot his wife in the head while "cleaning" his pistol. I put the quotation marks around cleaning because like this incident, it was late of an evening, it happened in his living room, on the sofa, and they had a very rocky marriage. The County SA decided it was a horrible accident, no charges were filed, and the whole thing disappeared. Fast forward 15-years, the former LEO (left the Department due to undisclosed problems) was arrested for taking part in a huge pyramid scheme and was sent to a Federal Prison for a 5 to 7-year vacation. I agree there is a whole lot more to this story than was revealed.

Grumpy

 

If there is ammunition in the weapon, you aren't cleaning. Tragic, so stupid, and a far too common occurrence. The daughter shot in the head by her father while "teaching the kids about guns". The cop who shot his training partner in the chest. Etc. I don't care *** you are doing with any real gun, you never ever never ever ever point a real gun at anyone unless you are intending to harm them.
These are stupid, stupid, stupid errors that shouldn't happen.

 

I heard once of a guy who shot and killed his wife while cleaning his cross bow. He said he didn't know it was still loaded.

 

This cop hasn’t been on the job a full year. He most likely is a young liberal they hired off the street. They just got done purging most of the good cops. This is a system by design. Most likely on the job training. Who in their right minds wants to be a cop in todays world?
Guaranteed this gun is one you have to pull the trigger to disassemble. Lack of training in that department I bet. They have only been taught to know how to shoot it somewhat I’m betting.

 

Mark Twain:
Don't meddle with old unloaded firearms. They are the most deadly and unerring things that have ever been created by man. You don't have to take any pains at all with them; you don't have to have a rest, you don't have to have any sights on the gun, you don't have to take aim, even. No, you just pick out a relative and bang away, and you are sure to get him. A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three-quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his mother every time at a hundred. Think what Waterloo would have been if one of the armies had been boys armed with old rusty muskets supposed not to be loaded, and the other army had been composed of their female relations. The very thought of it makes me shudder

 

From Sixguns by Elmer Keith-

"From the start, consider all guns as being loaded whether you know them to be empty or not. Treat them as loaded guns always and you will never have an accident. I am scared of empty guns and keep mine loaded at all times. The family knows the guns are loaded and treats them with respect. Loaded guns cause few accidents; 'empty guns' kill people every year."

 

I guess it is important to pay some kind of attention to accidents when they occur with firearms. But, I often wonder why they get the attention that they do here. I mean, folks who spend their life running a chain saw have probably had an accident or almost certainly know someone who has. Folks who drive cars for years have probably had at least one accident or know someone who has. Substitute the name of any power tool, or most any mechanical apparatus the humans use on a regular basis and you will get the same result. Yet when someone has an accident with a firearm the blamers and self congratulaters seem to come out of the woodwork.

If you go to power tool discussion sites you do not see entry after entry endlessly reciting the safety rules and ethics of power tools, testimony after testimony that begins with "I never....... and then a paragraph about how wonderful he is with power tools and how nothing this stupid could ever happen to him and/or a profile of what kind of defective person a person must be to have an accident with a firearm.

I have to ask, is it possible that the person who had the accident with the firearm was a person who, up to that moment, knew all of the safety rules and ethics pertaining to firearms and had faithfully followed them all of his life up until that one unguarded moment? Is it possible that nobody cares how safe and wonderful you are with a record of no firearms accidents yet. The operative word here is "yet". Is it possible that he is not some kind of defective personality type that can be profiled? Is it possible that he was a human just like you and I and made a mistake, just like any of us are capable of doing?

I am sure that I will get roasted for this, but I don't care. I think that it needs to be said. Its a tool for crying out loud. Mistakes are going to get made and people are going to get hurt. It has been happening since the first guy found out that you could make a stone into an ax and cut stuff. It is not a crime against humanity or an indication that the perpetrator of the mistake is a sub-human of some type. I say "get over it". Good grief!

 

I totally agree with racoonbeast. Murphy is alive and well and will pay you a visit from time to time. Obviously, safety rules are very important and we should do everything in our power to follow them. But we are human, and humans can and will make mistakes.

However, I think the difference between guns and power tools is that guns are designed for shooting bullets with the intent typically being to kill something, or training to kill something. Power tools do other things. Thus the stigma associated with guns is the killing aspect. Many people are afraid of guns, don't understand guns, and read in the liberal media how guns just go off and kill innocent people. It's a bunch of crap, but the liberal media is so intent on denigrating guns and the people who use them that a huge portion of the population believes their propaganda and hates guns.

Back to your original point. I left the 1911 Forum a few years ago for a variety of reasons, but one big reason was the BS espoused by many Forum respondents concerning gun accidents. One in particular was an accident where a young man (early 20s) placed some tannerite (spelling?) in an old washing machine and shot it from about 50 meters. The washing machine exploded and the door flew back and cut the shooter's leg off. Every response in the thread, but mine, was how he deserved it because he must have been a moron to do something like that. There was zero compassion from our intrepid responders. None of them apparently had ever made a mistake, or done something stupid.

Most of that callous attitude is the keyboard warrior/chairborne ranger syndrome. They've never been in harms way but want everyone to know how smart and brave they are. These threads lately seem to be different, I believe, because several of the respondents are sympathetic, and do understand that bad things can happen, even to good people. Those of us who served in the military and did something besides administrative work understand how things can get dorked up in spite of good planning, and having good people attempting to complete the task. Murphy happens.

People make mistakes. Can we learn from them? Yes, absolutely. But will bad mistakes happen again? Yes, absolutely.

 

When you accidentally kill your wife while cleaning your table saw, I'm pretty sure it will be talked about on the internet too.

 

@racoonbeast60 & @bradsvette

Your points are well taken, and I agree, but only to a certain degree. Here's why:

If a person cuts their hand off with a saw, nails their foot with a nail gun, burns their arm with an iron, or slices their finger with a knife while distracted, goofing off, or being stupid, the damage is localized to that person and the chances for collateral calamity are extremely limited. This is not the case with firearms. A person's distraction or stupidity could cause tragic collateral damage next door or a block and half away. The differences are extreme. The sole reason for which gun handling rules exist is because we acknowledge that the dangers of mishandling them go far beyond just the individual user being at risk. This is why reinforcing this is so important.

The other issue is that today, many seem to have a cavalier attitude towards firearms. I don't know if it's a parenting failure or another internet-induced downside, but there's a distinct shift from what I experienced with firearms as a child. With more and more people accessing firearms and not necessarily seeking proper education, it's imperative that we highlight these cases and discuss them, because new folks may eventually find themselves here and may benefit from understanding the seriousness of the consequences of carelessness.

You both are correct in that we are human and therefore things are bound to happen. Some of the things I've seen over several decades on firing lines and at matches is sobering, to say the least, and that's from folks who more regularly use and handle firearms. Casual or occasional users are even more at risk of calamity due to less familiarity - this includes LEOs. I know this will offend portions of the community, but this is also why I strongly advocate for pistols with manual safeties. A handgun with no safety is not a beginner's handgun. Likewise, a pistol that requires a trigger pull to disassemble is not a beginner's handgun. There's simply too much left to chance for something so serious. Likewise, trendy moves like press-checks and catching rounds in the air while clearing pistols look really cool in interweb videos, but these are not moves for beginners or casual users either.

Lastly, flat out stupidity needs to be called out and chastised for what it is. That's the only way that we can hope to correct the situation. It's what drill instructors do..... it's what teachers, coaches, and parents do (or did once upon a time). It's important to correct when it involves a chainsaw, but it is critical to correct when it involves a firearm. Yes, we all did silly things at one point or another in our lives, but the difference, as always, is in the degrees. Maybe we can help someone by pointing out and discussing the calamities of others so that they don't have to experience it themselves. Just a few random thoughts on the matter.