[combat auto]

I don't care what anyone uses for SD because that is their business...But I will comment as to comparing "fatness" of rounds...It is much better to use % difference than absolute #'s, because small absolute numbers can be very misleading when comparing two options. This applies well beyond ballistics to almost all walks of science and engineering.

I'll give a quick example, HST 147 - 9 vs HST 230 45. The 9 expands to about .61", the 45 to .85" (conservatively, many outlets clock it in greater than .9")...

With this data, first mistake many make is comparing the diameters. A Bullet face is not one dimensional it is two dimensional as it cuts through tissue, so you need to compare the area of a circle of each to get a better representation of the bullet face and compare the 2.

So in this example 147 is .29 (sq") and 230 .57 sq".

Second mistake people make "Well that is only .28 sq difference" how could that matter"...Wrong way to look at it, because the 230 is 97% fatter which is a humungous difference % wise. (You can't argue the additional .28 "doesn't matter" unless you believe the .29 you get with 9mm "doesn't matter" it would be totally illogical.)

It is like shooting two HST 147's for every one HST 45 you shoot as far as potential tissue damage. And along with the additional power factor difference (147pf vs 205pf, again an impressive % difference), round for round, the 45 is a much more potent SD round. (Fair arguments can be made either way for 9 vs 45 as a weapon system, but round for round, the answer is pretty undisputable.)

Now for this thread, you can do the calculation for 9 vs 10 mm the right way.

Yep, this is not a caliber war, just some basic geometry and arithmetic.

 

[combat auto]

Good article on H.S. - full link and a couple of key paragraphs pasted. Very unlikely 9mm, 10mm, or 45 is going to create meaningful amounts of H.S. Not the loads that most people run anyway. (That said, "allegedly" some of these 50 grain 9mm bullets' achieving 2000 fps (liberty) and perhaps you will get just a hint of it. They also make a 45 cal 78 grain at 1900). That is why fatness is so important in these calibers, no H.S., and good grief we have an entire industry and customers to support it (by paying way up for "duty" ammo) to optimize fatness with all the calibers. That should tell you something...Also note the comments about the importance of bullet weight even at high speeds in the article.

If I wanted to waste my time I'd try liberty 45 at 1900 just for fun, but I'm happy with HST 230 at almost an inch of expansion to get the job done. A cop I've been acquainted with used it in "battle" and he said the effects were "devastating". Hard to argue with almost one inch (expanded) bullet with at 205 PF, and still very controllable with a little practice. That's my accuracy, power, speed, sweet spot.

Size and weight matters folks:

"Hydrostatic shock, in bore sizes from .243” up to .338”, begins to lesson at impact velocities below 2600fps and most modern high velocity sporting cartridges including the magnums gradually lose shocking power beyond 300 to 350 yards. Of the thousands of animals harvested during TBR tests, 2600fps has been the most common cut off point with repeatable results (reactions) occurring when deliberately testing the impact velocity of 2650fps versus the impact velocity of 2550fps.
High velocity is not however a sole factor to be worshipped and held above other factors. For example, if velocity is increased too far without increasing bullet weight, the surface tension of water within the animal can cause so much resistance as to overcome the energy of the bullet. Ultra-high velocities can then also lead to shallow penetration. Generally speaking, the high velocity cut off point for small bore bullets used on medium game is around 3150fps. If for example we are using a 140 grain 7mm bullet at an impact velocity of 3250fps, chances are that even if the bullet penetrates vitals, the animal may still run some distance.

One factor to be very careful of with ultra-high velocity conditions is to not blame a delayed kill exclusively on ‘bullet blow up’. For example, if we were using the same 140gr 7mm bullet and the entry wound did indeed show signs of wide entry wounding and surface bullet blow up (or possibly blow back), even though this is undesirable performance, we still need to investigate further if we are to truly understand factors at play. In this instance, once the animal is recovered, it is important to study the vital organs and determine whether they were actually destroyed. If the vitals were destroyed, we can then conclude that the bullet did its job (even if in a less than desirable manner) but without hydrostatic shock. "

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com

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[combat auto]

Combat Auto;

Not aruguing here (I like what you say), but in the interest of education the IWBA, of which I was a charter member, has an article on tests with bullets in excess of 5,000 fps on animals (they failed!).

Lots of stuff out there - like "climate change", you have to read every "white paper" with a skeptical eye Or as a friend of mine says: "Paper will hold still while you write about anything on it"

Riposte

Yep, this is so true in any field not just ballistics...I posted it to add "diversity" of opinion. I learned in the medical industry, which I have had to participate in at a very critical level in order to stay alive for the last 15 years, that the "experts" have various opinions in sometimes very serious matters. Advise: never take one opinion only, I don't care who is giving it to you. Think of the "infamous" lol FBI paper some years ago which said 9, 40, and 45 are basically more or less the same round for round (i.e, size doesn't matter). Lots of people fell for it. Advise: read as much as you care to, hopefully of different views, watch real-life videos, do your own testing when you can, AND always draw your own conclusions!

 

[combat auto]

And I guess GIs just laughed when shot by German sidearms.

There are some comments about this in the historical record related to WW1, I can't tell you the exact book I read them in because I don't remember off hand. A somewhat "popular" comment made in the front lines of combat of US solder's in Europe was something to the effect that: "45 will kill you right on the battle field, 9mm will kill you in the field hospital behind the lines sometimes days latter"...

 

[combat auto]

The "city never sleeps" in attempts to convince that 9mm is on par with just about everything out there...Somehow, and I don't understand this phenomena ;-) because most of the ones I watch are on the 1911-F, but over many, many, years, I must be watching all the wrong video's of police shootings and even some "civilian" SD shooting which show the lethality of 9mm, it doesn't look too good usually...Any gun has the potential to be used by a person to kill, that is obvious, and guns used more often like tinny calibers will kill more people, but two things are missing here to even begin to determine ballistic effectiveness: 1) What is the ratio of how many people it killed divided by how many people who got shot by it and didn't kill? and 2) How long did it take the Dude to pass away (or at least go down hard) , did he die in the "field of battle" or in the hospital days later?

Now granted, this data is hard (or even impossible) to get, so one has to use other means to come to conclusions. Physics, historical record, long term trends, a big giant dose of common sense. My humble opinion of course.

Or I guess someone propose using a sword, might be a good back up plan, but somewhat harder to carry, who to say. ;-).

 

[combat auto]

An interesting point for me is the generally poor reputation of 9mm FMJ. The received wisdom is that outside of an instantly incapacitating shot, the 9mm in FMJ doesn't incapacitate fast enough. Bullet design is supposed to have allowed the 9mm to perform about as well as the .45 FMJ through expansion, which we are told is good enough.

So... if good (handgun) bullet design is, by the 9mm advocates own logic, making bigger holes... then isn't a .45 expanding round better? It has both a greater starting diameter, and more material to spread out creating a larger expanded size.

Then there is the fact that if you do need to defend yourself you won't be shooting a block of ballistics gel, and in practice expansion even with the best bullet designs isn't guaranteed.

10mm is better than 9mm but inferior to .45. Oh, and this isn't a caliber war thing.

Good points...Everything "matters" and the disconnect in these discussions is too often (not always) the "small-caliber" proponents want to convince "size" doesn't matter. Yes, 9mm (depending on the exact round used) may penetrate a little more than some 45's, but as overweight/large/heavy as the citizenry has become, I've yet to read about instances where 45 in ball or HP failed to penetrate enough in the human body (that is the benefit of a significantly higher Power Factor/momentum which 45 also brings to the table)...And the notion that a 9mm, even with 10 "+Ps" added traveling at 1400 fps is going to induce material amounts of H-Shock is quite a fantasy. That leaves one major differentiate in pistol calibers: SIZE (that is, in anything below (at least) full power/woodsman type stuff in 357 or 10mm.)...

On the other point of improvements in design, yes, 9mm HP are fatter than they were (if one chooses well), YES 45 HPs are much fatter then they were (if one chooses well), and as mention, overall thugs may be fatter/heavier/bigger too. So relatively (emphases) speaking, not much has changes when it comes to civilian self defense and caliber choices, size still remains the key differentiator in these calibers (round for round, and as I always say, a good case can be made for both 9 and 45 as a weapon-"system" as both have some great attributes, but round for round not so much. I do shoot both BTW).

And the anecdotal data coming from the field has shown a trend over the years in this regard. The cop and civilian SD shooting with 9, (usually) show relatively high round counts. The much, much fewer, incidents of of 45 shootings do not (usually)...And than there is that Cop in South America, which has been posted here several times and takes down thugs by shooting a burst of 9 at he body, and if thug doesn't go down a burst at his head. Burst? Who knows, but two bursts at least 6, maybe up to ten rounds. Good for the cop, he makes the best use of his weapon system, but this is hardly indicative of a caliber (again, round for round) on par with 45...fatness matters.