[Old Dog]

Pretty much everyone who is teaching extremely close quarters these days carries aiwb themselves. It is not that difficult to figure out why.

Cites, please.

Not my experience.

 

[YVK]

Cites, please.

Not my experience.

Craig Douglas, for once. I think Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp, but I gotta double check on the latter.

This is pic of Southnarc's.

Now, besides just a blind reference, Ive just actually typed up a paragraph explaining why, how about that.

 

[Grizzman]

Nope, never, not gonna even try it.

 

[Old Dog]

Craig Douglas, for once.

We'll see. He's up here next month for ECQC at FAS. If this is what the commercial trainers are teaching paying students, for concealed carry classes, oh well.

Anyway, you stated, "Pretty much everyone who is teaching extremely close quarters these days carries aiwb themselves." So, please quantify and qualify your statement.

I've had a variety of professional training through several law enforcement agencies and entities over the past 17 years and this mode of carry has not been taught.

This is pic of Southnarc's.

Because all of us go around during the course of our average day attired and packing like that...

 

[YVK]

We'll see. He's up here next month for ECQC at FAS.

I've had a variety of professional training through several law enforcement agencies and entities over the past 17 years and this mode of carry has not been taught.

Let us know what you think about the class.

Now, before I start quantifying anything else besides what I've already said, would you quantify what concealed carry professional training you've done? I mean concealed carry and fighting for a gun that's not kept in with a level III retention is a pretty specialized training for law enforcement, isn't it? Undercover work, maybe, which is where Craig learned his craft?

 

[riposte191145]

I know a few old school guys who have carried a Commander AIWB, but they all used Summer Specials with the muzzle pointed outward of the thigh and they all had a specific reason (all worked narcotics and they could protect the gun from a "bump frisk").

I know several of the newer folks mentioned above and they are equally serious, and more power to them. I am not going to cover my femoral or genital area with the muzzle - but if you want to then that's your prerogative...just be sure your are perfect, 100% of the time...it only takes one mistake.

A quarter second of speed on the presentation is not al that important unless you can hit the CNS reliably with the first shot ... a shot to the heart can still take 5 - 15 (or more) seconds to take effect...makes fractions of a second saved on the draw seem moot.

Riposte

 

[Ranger4]

No, do not practice Mexican carry, appendix carry, or castration carry or anything similar. No professional will do that. I carried a custom, commander size, series for protective service work in the US and elsewhere for several years. There are safety reasons but the reason we do not carry a gun in front is simply because it interferes with movement. Just try to run with one or engage some guy who wants to fight. and try to move around doing defensive maneuvers. You must be 50% slower with one of the big front carry rigs.

The 1911 is a flat gun. It is close to the body in a cross draw vertical rig, and strong side carry or over the hip at a cant. You can run with any of those types as long as they are leather and flex.

The 1911 is also flat enough for a vertical shoulder rig and you can run pretty well with them. Last I carried mostly in an original jackasz rig later changed to Miami Classic. I have three if them. Only way to carry a 1911 on a long haul, 12-18 hours. They are a horizontal carry and are not good for running unless you remove the gun.

As for as safety, one of my mentors was Dan Combs, said in 1974 to be the fastest draw alive. Dan was practicing alone and after putting the 1911 in his waisteband behind his duty belt, he was going to inspect a target and the gun went off and shot him in the gut. Dan told me it was a 1911A1 and would sometimes the hammer would appear to be down but actually held in the half cock position. He thinks when he stepped forward the gun went off. He always recommended never to wear a holster where a round would hit your body, if the gun fired. Profile: Oklahoma Highway Patrol's Captain Dan Combs | An Official Journal Of The NRA (americanrifleman.org)

''Combs was severely wounded by, but survived the accidental discharge of, a .45-cal. semi-automatic handgun at the range during the late 1960s. He resumed his training and exhibition schedule in the early 1970s'''

So, no I do not appendix carry, there is never a tactical advantage, and do not know anyone who carrries professionally that does.. Also, if you are facing an opponent with a strong side or hip carry you can begin the draw without telegraphing your move. The belly carry you have to put your entire hand in front if you from the side, and you may have to pull up a cover garment away from the gun. Prolly get 3 rounds to the belly before you get one shot off in that scenario. It might work while golfing or something like that, but not anything where you are active.

Opinions vary.

 

[shooter59]

Pure draw speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor in a gunfight.

 

[YVK]

Pure draw speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor in a gunfight.

There are other aspects that I mentioned upthread.

No professional? Truly a case of you don't know what you don't know, but I am afraid I won't pass a citation and quantification burden
Your thread, fellas, I hope OP got what they needed.

 

[shooter59]

There are other aspects that I mentioned upthread.

No professional? Truly a case of you don't know what you don't know, but I am afraid I won't pass a citation and quantification burden
Your thread, fellas, I hope OP got what they needed.

Did I say ‘no or not professional’ somewhere? How many people do you respond to when quoting someone’s post? And don’t assume every comment is about or directed at you.

 

[Electricmo]

Imagine trying to draw from appendix carry under stress. You just might draw , drop safety and put finger in trigger before clearing holster. Might result in instant gender change. No Thanks!

 

[GOLDWINGS]

No, do not practice Mexican carry, appendix carry, or castration carry or anything similar. No professional will do that. I carried a custom, commander size, series for protective service work in the US and elsewhere for several years. There are safety reasons but the reason we do not carry a gun in front is simply because it interferes with movement. Just try to run with one or engage some guy who wants to fight. and try to move around doing defensive maneuvers. You must be 50% slower with one of the big front carry rigs.

The 1911 is a flat gun. It is close to the body in a cross draw vertical rig, and strong side carry or over the hip at a cant. You can run with any of those types as long as they are leather and flex.

The 1911 is also flat enough for a vertical shoulder rig and you can run pretty well with them. Last I carried mostly in an original jackasz rig later changed to Miami Classic. I have three if them. Only way to carry a 1911 on a long haul, 12-18 hours. They are a horizontal carry and are not good for running unless you remove the gun.

As for as safety, one of my mentors was Dan Combs, said in 1974 to be the fastest draw alive. Dan was practicing alone and after putting the 1911 in his waisteband behind his duty belt, he was going to inspect a target and the gun went off and shot him in the gut. Dan told me it was a 1911A1 and would sometimes the hammer would appear to be down but actually held in the half cock position. He thinks when he stepped forward the gun went off. He always recommended never to wear a holster where a round would hit your body, if the gun fired. Profile: Oklahoma Highway Patrol's Captain Dan Combs | An Official Journal Of The NRA (americanrifleman.org)

''Combs was severely wounded by, but survived the accidental discharge of, a .45-cal. semi-automatic handgun at the range during the late 1960s. He resumed his training and exhibition schedule in the early 1970s'''

So, no I do not appendix carry, there is never a tactical advantage, and do not know anyone who carrries professionally that does.. Also, if you are facing an opponent with a strong side or hip carry you can begin the draw without telegraphing your move. The belly carry you have to put your entire hand in front if you from the side, and you may have to pull up a cover garment away from the gun. Prolly get 3 rounds to the belly before you get one shot off in that scenario. It might work while golfing or something like that, but not anything where you are active.

Opinions vary.

My best post vote ^^^^^^^

 

[YVK]

Did I say ‘no or not professional’ somewhere? How many people do you respond to when quoting someone’s post? And don’t assume every comment is about or directed at you.

I didn't see you say "no professional" anywhere, someone else did. I can't use quotations in that particular instance to clarify who I'm responding to. That part of my response, naturally, wasn't directed at you and I should not have responded at all. I apologize for making you believe it was sent your way.

Imagine trying to draw from appendix carry under stress. You just might draw , drop safety and put finger in trigger before clearing holster.

You probably shouldn't do that with any holster position, no?
Properly set appendix holster with a correct technique in a person who's fit for aiwb doesn't muzzle you during a draw in standing position. There are some videos on this but that's OK. Now, again, your thread boys, I only came back to clear things up with @shooter59.

 

[Ranger4]

Pure draw speed is rarely if ever the deciding factor in a gunfight.

I guess the subject is pelvis carry and the comment is draw speed. I think it,bears mention that there are no real gunfight stats on draw speed, in fact mostcstats are from the FBI and most only apply to police officers and people
they.

Actually for patrol officers draw speed has been the deciding factor. An officer walks up to a car, one or more people will ambush him. If he can get the first shot off and fall backwards and shoot through the doors from the ground his odds are pretty good. But he needs his bullet to leave first. The goal is for the bullet or muzzle blast to delay or alter the first round from the car long enough for the officer to fall back to the ground and begin his firing, or to move or dive toward the rear of the car out of view and return fire from an alternate position closer to his patrol car. Draw speed once he sees the gun is the most important factor. The same would apply to private person in that same 3-6 foot to maybe 10 feet window. Here are some interesting stats. 17 Most Important Gunfight Stats: Backed By Data and Real World Experience - Tier Three Tactical

Key facts

7. The average time for a police officer to mentally justify using their weapons was .21 sec for a simple scenario, .87sec for a complex one. (source)
8. The average time it takes for someone to draw from a level 1, friction retention holster, is 1.71 sec
9. World Class shooters can draw and fire from a level 1 holster in .76 sec in this case Jerry Miculek
(what us the draw speed from the pelvis carry?)

What This Means
We can see that there is huge room for improvement in our ability to draw our weapon from a holster. Obviously level 1 holsters are the quickest, and more secure holsters i.e level 3 holsters, will take longer, as will drawing from concealment. From the stats above it looks like we can expect that a proficient shooter can draw and fire a weapon in about 1.5 seconds, including the decision to use deadly force.
This means that we need to create at least this much time and distance to employ our weapons once we are in a situations that warrants it. .

Key Distances and Times
These stats will cover what we need to know about common distances, and times of occurrence in gunfights.
10. The deadliest distances for police gunfights is 3-6 feet. (Source)
11. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. (Source)
12. About 60% of police shootings occur during hours of darkness (Source)
What This Means
Often times we assume that skill will make all the difference in deadly force encounters. This is true, but only at extended distances, where it is truly difficult to hit your target. If you read the source for stat 11, you will see that even shooters that have never touched a gun before can accurately point shoot a weapon at distances of less than 15 feet. Alarmingly, they are more likely to hit the head because that is where their vision natural goes; where as trained personnel fire center of mass most of time.
Even if you look as badass as these dudes, you’re still in a **** sandwich if you are in a 3 ft gunfight because it requires very little skill to be very deadly. So we need some method to create time and distance to enhance our survivability.
(this point is that at short fistance skill does not matter much, only draw speed, first guy wins)

Shooting and Moving
This section will cover the stats relating to the rounds fired, movements, and other important factors.
13. If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. (Source)
14. If you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of a torso shot. (Source)
15. Seeking cover and returning fire reduces your chance of being shot to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate. (Source)
16. The most common caliber to be shot with is 9mm (Source)
17. Most gunfights average 3.59 rounds per incident (Source)
What This Means
The vast majority of our firearms practice is flat footed on the range. While this is a necessary part of practicing fundamentals, it will surely get us killed if we fight this way. If at all possible you need to seek cover in a gunfight, or at the very least you need to move and shoot.
These skills are very advanced, and the vast majority of folks will need to master the simpler tasks of shooting first. I highly recommend seeking out force on force training with qualified instructors to practice these advanced concepts.

----------------------------------------------------
And from USA carry, the perfect gunfight.
The Statistically Perfect Gunfight | USCCA (usconcealedcarry.com)
This is the statistically perfect gunfight. FBI stats say the average gunfight includes three rounds fired over three seconds from a distance of 3 yards. The police officer in this video has great situational awareness. He is also ready with a close-quarters counter attack, during which he fires multiple rounds to stop the attacker.
-----------I have a 36 inch sleeve length, my hands add about 4 inches if I want to snatch a gun, or block a draw. I can block a draw with an open hand, a punch or just putting my hand arm on the hand reaching for the gun on front of a person. If it is on his belt at 3 o'clock from a standing position, I cannot reach the gun without moving forward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If your “training” focuses on slow, methodical fire at 25 yards, you are simply plinking. You are not training for a real gunfight. This officer needed to redirect the attacker’s pistol, step offline, draw his pistol, fire for effect, move to cover and scan the area. This sequence does not come without repeated training. You can train like this with lasers, airsoft pistols or simulated ammunition. You must train like this if you want to give yourself the best chance to win a gunfight.
---------------------------------------------------------
My training is to draw with the first round leaving the instant the gun clears leather, a second round is fired as both arms extend to a Weaver stance, the first round no sights, the second round when the font sight touched the target and the third round being an aimed shot. These training method supports my training.
-------------------------
For accuracy, the above stats are for police officers. Others report different distances etc for private shootings. Here is one. The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Bottom line. I think at 10-20 feet or so, draw speed is the deciding factor. Just my opinion.,of course. We still had horses and buggies during much of the time I was serious using handguns on a daily basis.

 

[Swift1]

I guess the subject is pelvis carry and the comment is draw speed. I think it,bears mention that there are no real gunfight stats on draw speed, in fact mostcstats are from the FBI and most only apply to police officers and people
they.

Actually for patrol officers draw speed has been the deciding factor. An officer walks up to a car, one or more people will ambush him. If he can get the first shot off and fall backwards and shoot through the doors from the ground his odds are pretty good. But he needs his bullet to leave first. The goal is for the bullet or muzzle blast to delay or alter the first round from the car long enough for the officer to fall back to the ground and begin his firing, or to move or dive toward the rear of the car out of view and return fire from an alternate position closer to his patrol car. Draw speed once he sees the gun is the most important factor. The same would apply to private person in that same 3-6 foot to maybe 10 feet window. Here are some interesting stats. 17 Most Important Gunfight Stats: Backed By Data and Real World Experience - Tier Three Tactical

Key facts

7. The average time for a police officer to mentally justify using their weapons was .21 sec for a simple scenario, .87sec for a complex one. (source)
8. The average time it takes for someone to draw from a level 1, friction retention holster, is 1.71 sec
9. World Class shooters can draw and fire from a level 1 holster in .76 sec in this case Jerry Miculek
(what us the draw speed from the pelvis carry?)

What This Means
We can see that there is huge room for improvement in our ability to draw our weapon from a holster. Obviously level 1 holsters are the quickest, and more secure holsters i.e level 3 holsters, will take longer, as will drawing from concealment. From the stats above it looks like we can expect that a proficient shooter can draw and fire a weapon in about 1.5 seconds, including the decision to use deadly force.
This means that we need to create at least this much time and distance to employ our weapons once we are in a situations that warrants it. .

Key Distances and Times
These stats will cover what we need to know about common distances, and times of occurrence in gunfights.
10. The deadliest distances for police gunfights is 3-6 feet. (Source)
11. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. (Source)
12. About 60% of police shootings occur during hours of darkness (Source)
What This Means
Often times we assume that skill will make all the difference in deadly force encounters. This is true, but only at extended distances, where it is truly difficult to hit your target. If you read the source for stat 11, you will see that even shooters that have never touched a gun before can accurately point shoot a weapon at distances of less than 15 feet. Alarmingly, they are more likely to hit the head because that is where their vision natural goes; where as trained personnel fire center of mass most of time.
Even if you look as badass as these dudes, you’re still in a **** sandwich if you are in a 3 ft gunfight because it requires very little skill to be very deadly. So we need some method to create time and distance to enhance our survivability.
(this point is that at short fistance skill does not matter much, only draw speed, first guy wins)

Shooting and Moving
This section will cover the stats relating to the rounds fired, movements, and other important factors.
13. If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. (Source)
14. If you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of a torso shot. (Source)
15. Seeking cover and returning fire reduces your chance of being shot to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate. (Source)
16. The most common caliber to be shot with is 9mm (Source)
17. Most gunfights average 3.59 rounds per incident (Source)
What This Means
The vast majority of our firearms practice is flat footed on the range. While this is a necessary part of practicing fundamentals, it will surely get us killed if we fight this way. If at all possible you need to seek cover in a gunfight, or at the very least you need to move and shoot.
These skills are very advanced, and the vast majority of folks will need to master the simpler tasks of shooting first. I highly recommend seeking out force on force training with qualified instructors to practice these advanced concepts.

----------------------------------------------------
And from USA carry, the perfect gunfight.
The Statistically Perfect Gunfight | USCCA (usconcealedcarry.com)
This is the statistically perfect gunfight. FBI stats say the average gunfight includes three rounds fired over three seconds from a distance of 3 yards. The police officer in this video has great situational awareness. He is also ready with a close-quarters counter attack, during which he fires multiple rounds to stop the attacker.
-----------I have a 36 inch sleeve length, my hands add about 4 inches if I want to snatch a gun, or block a draw. I can block a draw with an open hand, a punch or just putting my hand arm on the hand reaching for the gun on front of a person. If it is on his belt at 3 o'clock from a standing position, I cannot reach the gun without moving forward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If your “training” focuses on slow, methodical fire at 25 yards, you are simply plinking. You are not training for a real gunfight. This officer needed to redirect the attacker’s pistol, step offline, draw his pistol, fire for effect, move to cover and scan the area. This sequence does not come without repeated training. You can train like this with lasers, airsoft pistols or simulated ammunition. You must train like this if you want to give yourself the best chance to win a gunfight.
---------------------------------------------------------
My training is to draw with the first round leaving the instant the gun clears leather, a second round is fired as both arms extend to a Weaver stance, the first round no sights, the second round when the font sight touched the target and the third round being an aimed shot. These training method supports my training.
-------------------------
For accuracy, the above stats are for police officers. Others report different distances etc for private shootings. Here is one. The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Bottom line. I think at 10-20 feet or so, draw speed is the deciding factor. Just my opinion.,of course. We still had horses and buggies during much of the time I was serious using handguns on a daily basis.

Thanks!

 

[shooter59]

I guess the subject is pelvis carry and the comment is draw speed. I think it,bears mention that there are no real gunfight stats on draw speed, in fact mostcstats are from the FBI and most only apply to police officers and people
they.

Actually for patrol officers draw speed has been the deciding factor. An officer walks up to a car, one or more people will ambush him. If he can get the first shot off and fall backwards and shoot through the doors from the ground his odds are pretty good. But he needs his bullet to leave first. The goal is for the bullet or muzzle blast to delay or alter the first round from the car long enough for the officer to fall back to the ground and begin his firing, or to move or dive toward the rear of the car out of view and return fire from an alternate position closer to his patrol car. Draw speed once he sees the gun is the most important factor. The same would apply to private person in that same 3-6 foot to maybe 10 feet window. Here are some interesting stats. 17 Most Important Gunfight Stats: Backed By Data and Real World Experience - Tier Three Tactical

Key facts

7. The average time for a police officer to mentally justify using their weapons was .21 sec for a simple scenario, .87sec for a complex one. (source)
8. The average time it takes for someone to draw from a level 1, friction retention holster, is 1.71 sec
9. World Class shooters can draw and fire from a level 1 holster in .76 sec in this case Jerry Miculek
(what us the draw speed from the pelvis carry?)

What This Means
We can see that there is huge room for improvement in our ability to draw our weapon from a holster. Obviously level 1 holsters are the quickest, and more secure holsters i.e level 3 holsters, will take longer, as will drawing from concealment. From the stats above it looks like we can expect that a proficient shooter can draw and fire a weapon in about 1.5 seconds, including the decision to use deadly force.
This means that we need to create at least this much time and distance to employ our weapons once we are in a situations that warrants it. .

Key Distances and Times
These stats will cover what we need to know about common distances, and times of occurrence in gunfights.
10. The deadliest distances for police gunfights is 3-6 feet. (Source)
11. Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft. (Source)
12. About 60% of police shootings occur during hours of darkness (Source)
What This Means
Often times we assume that skill will make all the difference in deadly force encounters. This is true, but only at extended distances, where it is truly difficult to hit your target. If you read the source for stat 11, you will see that even shooters that have never touched a gun before can accurately point shoot a weapon at distances of less than 15 feet. Alarmingly, they are more likely to hit the head because that is where their vision natural goes; where as trained personnel fire center of mass most of time.
Even if you look as badass as these dudes, you’re still in a **** sandwich if you are in a 3 ft gunfight because it requires very little skill to be very deadly. So we need some method to create time and distance to enhance our survivability.
(this point is that at short fistance skill does not matter much, only draw speed, first guy wins)

Shooting and Moving
This section will cover the stats relating to the rounds fired, movements, and other important factors.
13. If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. (Source)
14. If you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of a torso shot. (Source)
15. Seeking cover and returning fire reduces your chance of being shot to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate. (Source)
16. The most common caliber to be shot with is 9mm (Source)
17. Most gunfights average 3.59 rounds per incident (Source)
What This Means
The vast majority of our firearms practice is flat footed on the range. While this is a necessary part of practicing fundamentals, it will surely get us killed if we fight this way. If at all possible you need to seek cover in a gunfight, or at the very least you need to move and shoot.
These skills are very advanced, and the vast majority of folks will need to master the simpler tasks of shooting first. I highly recommend seeking out force on force training with qualified instructors to practice these advanced concepts.

----------------------------------------------------
And from USA carry, the perfect gunfight.
The Statistically Perfect Gunfight | USCCA (usconcealedcarry.com)
This is the statistically perfect gunfight. FBI stats say the average gunfight includes three rounds fired over three seconds from a distance of 3 yards. The police officer in this video has great situational awareness. He is also ready with a close-quarters counter attack, during which he fires multiple rounds to stop the attacker.
-----------I have a 36 inch sleeve length, my hands add about 4 inches if I want to snatch a gun, or block a draw. I can block a draw with an open hand, a punch or just putting my hand arm on the hand reaching for the gun on front of a person. If it is on his belt at 3 o'clock from a standing position, I cannot reach the gun without moving forward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------If your “training” focuses on slow, methodical fire at 25 yards, you are simply plinking. You are not training for a real gunfight. This officer needed to redirect the attacker’s pistol, step offline, draw his pistol, fire for effect, move to cover and scan the area. This sequence does not come without repeated training. You can train like this with lasers, airsoft pistols or simulated ammunition. You must train like this if you want to give yourself the best chance to win a gunfight.
---------------------------------------------------------
My training is to draw with the first round leaving the instant the gun clears leather, a second round is fired as both arms extend to a Weaver stance, the first round no sights, the second round when the font sight touched the target and the third round being an aimed shot. These training method supports my training.
-------------------------
For accuracy, the above stats are for police officers. Others report different distances etc for private shootings. Here is one. The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Bottom line. I think at 10-20 feet or so, draw speed is the deciding factor. Just my opinion.,of course. We still had horses and buggies during much of the time I was serious using handguns on a daily basis.

We’re going to have to disagree. While there are no stats, there is the trend of first in car, and later body cams.

The subject was in my wheelhouse for teaching for many years. And though LE, I am a big advocate of working your draw times as low as safely and practically possible. But the subject is AC, but many proponents of it point to the speed of it as a determining factor.

Regardless of your reason for carrying, be it personal, or job related……. If you start an encounter depending on pure speed of draw, you’re already so far behind the curve, you better pray the bad guy misses. Going to your handgun after ditching another gun in a fight?, maybe then it becomes a bigger factor.

 

[Swift1]

Just a small addition to Ranger 4's comprehensive and excellent post. I studied and taught martial arts for most of my life. We practiced getting close and blocking the cross draw, the muscle systems supporting cross draw are weaker than a strong side draw and the arm more accessible, it is comparatively easy to jam. There are numerous highly damaging to lethal follow ups to the draw stop armed or not. Few of us who are not in the military, law enforcement or terminally bad neighborhoods will ever personally know the "truth" of the matter. Clausewitz talked about preferring to learn from the mistakes of others to learning from personal experience, I'm all in on that.

 

[Old Dog]

would you quantify what concealed carry professional training you've done?

Eh, fair enough. Well only a bit touched on concealed carry (for investigators/detectives) but the employers required belt holsters on-duty though permitted IWB off-duty (strongside). A total of 22 years of annual in-service training (5 of those as a reserve officer, the rest full-time )and quarterly to semi-annual firearms qualification, 1 LE firearms instructor academy (shotgun/patrol carbine/submachine gun/pistol), 3 law enforcement academies for a total of about 62 weeks of my life, 1 SWAT academy, 1 SRT academy, several private contractors training me as a military police officer, in VBSS and maritime expeditionary security forces, Firearms Academy of Seattle (does not permit IWB holsters for any training courses), Gunsite (did not use to allow IWB) and a few local courses here and there. This was current up through 1 April 2022. Not one instructor I've ever had was a proponent of AIWB carry, but I do understand now that FAS permits its guest instructors to use that mode although students are still not allowed IWB), haven't kept current on Gunsite -- perhaps should be reading the newsletter.

Waiting to hear back on the plethora of professionals who actually recommend AIWB and teach this mode of carry during training courses, especially for those new to concealed carry.

 

[J-23]

Reading the posts I've started to worry about myself...
I've been carrying AIWB for a long time.. OK.. it wasn't 4.25" 1911... but 3.6" CZ P-01 was pretty heavy, M&P9 was 4.25" and now Staccato C2 with full mag weights a lot... like 1911 with 8 rds.
I don't have any problems with running, walking, standing, sitting, squatting, lying down, kneeling, fighting nor drawing safely under the stress.
So... I think I won't worry about this anymore, even others have bad experience or knowledge.... The thing is, if you know how to carry appendix and you use good quality holster, this is one of the best and fastest concealed carry method.

 

[YVK]

Waiting to hear back on the plethora of professionals who actually recommend AIWB and teach this mode of carry during training courses, especially for those new to concealed carry.

That's a distinguished training resume, Old Dog.

I am trying to leave this thread as graciously as I can without necessarily making an impression that I am running away. I'll answer the best that I can; it this is not satisfactory, consider that I've conceded. The above mentioned guys specifically do the close quarters / grappling / retention as I thought this was what question was about.

As an aside, I am not sure why you put so much emphasis on who allows what mode in their class. It is simply a liability question, not necessarily an indictment on the position. Pat Rogers didn't allow even a conventional strong side IWB in his classes; does it mean it is unsafe then? Again. a rhetorical question, no reply necessary.

Todd Green was the first instructor who practiced and allowed AIWB. He was adamant this wasn't for newbies. He is no longer with us though, I'm only mentioning him as an expression of a respect. He was great on that subject. Todd was Craig's student too.
Spencer Keepers is another guy, he was mentioned above. I don't like him for other reasons.
I do like Ernest Langdon though who is an excellent AIWB practitioner. He also likes DA/SA guns that are perfect for that mode of carry.
Gabe White is the best AIWB user I know. I trained with him, and I was privileged to shoot the Rogers School class with him when he cleaned it, out of AIWB. I think he remains the only guy to do so, out of like 5 people who's done that. Interestingly, Gabe is Craig's student too. Gabe works for a sheriff's department out West.
Mike Seeklander who was a chief instructor for FAMS (guess who draws from a sitting position a lot) actually made some TV episodes that demonstrate that mode. This wasn't even a teaching class but a publicly available cable TV.
I've an AIWB rig that was made by a member here who made them for some "military guys"; he sent me a pic of one for their 226. However, I don't know who teaches AIWB to Navy SEALs.
There are other, Jedlinksi maybe, Cowan, that I either don't care about or know much about.

Now, I am going to close that loop by pointing out that while you were so interested in what is really a tangential part of it (who and how many) I've not heard back anything that refutes the "why" part of forward of the hip being the most defensible spot. No reply is necessary though.