[YVK]

When is the last time anyone reading this ran a block with a gun in the holster?

About a month ago, until weather started to get worse, and every time I go for a run. Or a hike, the last one for the season was 11 miles. And every time I shoot a 3-G match since local young bastards who build stages wanna make us older dudes run.

1911s were the issue pocket gun. Notice I said pocket gun, because I always carried two handguns, one always in the pocket or the waistband.
I am going to stick a Glock in my hip pocket when I go out to my shop. I do that often, Glock, revolver, 1911, whatever.

That is pretty good.

 

[mkk41]

Back to the Grip Safety on the 1911. I carried as an MP. We carried when just on base duty with a loaded magazine, hammer down on an empty chamber. I carried for a local police department. I worked nights in a high crime area. The possibility of fighting drunks was common. I carried hammer down on a live round. Lots of reasons. My holster the had a snap, if I made a felony stop the snap came off in the car, as I stepped out of the car, I thumbed back the hammer and approached the car with the gun in hand facing the ground.



The real world use to me is carrying cocked and locked, because they do come off of safety if you run or move around a lot. The Highpower has the same issue, except the safety does not tend to come off as easy as a 1911. If I were crryig a Highpower cocked and locked and running or moving constantly I would worried about it. the GS solves that problem. For me..

I'd give ya 2 likes if possible!

I'm also partial to carrying hammer down on a live round for various reasons , have stated that I had done so for over 40yrs , and got hammered for it on this forum. The thumb safety blocks the sear , but few realize just how little sear/hammer engagement (.015''~.025'') is holding that hammer back , especially if the hammer/sear has had some work done. Yeah, there's also the half-cock notch , but they have sheared off. The later hammers (Ser.80?) with lower stop is a better design.
I have had , and talked to many others that had the safety , usually a tacti-kool extended safety on a 1911 or BHP, inadvertently get swiped off. Even using thumb-break holsters designed for the retention strap to go between the cocked & locked hammer and rear of slide. Most 1911 holsters , leather or Kydex , that are molded to fit are seemingly for a stock thumb safety. I actually prefer the original 'small tab' 1911 thumb safety. I had a big calloused scar on my thumb that hits the little tab perfectly.

 

[Ranger4]

A picture is worth 40 words, right. First pic is a 1911 in a Jackasss or Miami Classic. If you look at the snap, it puts downward pressure on the thumb safety. The JA rigs only provide for vertical carry and the only way they will close the thumb snap if for the gun to be cocked. So, you carry it cocked and locked but if you are in and out of cars, trucks, humvees, choppers or other craft or running, those safeties will sometimes come off. This is a full size 1911, in 400 Corbon.

This upside down picture is a 38 Super than I built. It will shoot 1 inch groups at 25 yards, sometimes much better. I hand fitted everything on that gun, slide, frame, barrel, bushing, and every moving part. Some of them I hand fitted twice because the factory parts did not meet my approval. The trigger is exactly 4.50. Some old guy in Berryville, Arkansas gave me tips on how to make it accurate. It has been several years since I built it, it has never had an jam or failure, not one. I like that

This third picture is the Corbon 1911 with a closer look of the safety cocked and locked into the JA rig. As you can see if you zoom a bit, that snap locks down on top of the thumb safety and any movement will push the safety down and off.

This 4th picture is the Corbon gun in another holster. I carry that one occasionally while hunting or in bear country, in this little flat leather holster. This pic shows that the thumb safety is also pressed down by the snap. The holster will not snap closed unless the hammer is cocked. If you move around enough the constant walking can push that safety off.

This next picture is another holster but with the 38 Super in it. If you look closely you will see that the snap on it is also pressing downward on the thumb safety. Again, this holster will not allow the snap to close unless the hammer is cocked, so it only takes the gun in the cocked and locked position.

This next picture is an Officer's model in the same holster as the 3th picture above that showed how the snap was pressing down on the thumb safety of the Corbon gun. The point of this one is that the same holster would work fine for the officer's model as it does not have the snap pressing down on the thumb safety at all, but the two full size guns it does. It just loosely fits over the safety and slightly above it.

All three of the leather holster, both the $200 shoulder rig or the other 2 hip holsters all push down on the thumb safety during movement and in my case the safety has come off several times. I have one other holster, a paddle holster that will do the same if I ride a 4 x 4 and hit lots of bumps. Just the nature of the gun. And no, I do not my 1911s in plastic holsters. I do have a 1911-22 that I will put in plastic but they will scratch all blue guns. I put plastic guns in plastic holster, no problem.

I do have leather holsters for the 1911 that are open top and no snaps and they work fine for CCW carry if I am just going down to Walmart of the grocery store. But if I am going 4 wheeling or doing anything really active, I want a snap and I want to carry cocked and locked. That is just me opinions vary. Nothing else to add on the subject, I carried them in harms way all over the world, and often the thumb safety would come off, and I felt safe because the grip safety insured the gun would not fire, unless somebody put a grip on it. I like that additional safety feature. People who are not as active as me do not need it or want it, and that is great with me too.

This last picture is the Glock I carried out to my shop an hour ago. Been having a skunk in the yard but he did not show tonight. . .

 

[mkk41]

OUTSTANDING!!! Exactly what I was talking about. Bravo-Zulu Ranger!

 

[Ranger4]

OUTSTANDING!!! Exactly what I was talking about. Bravo-Zulu Ranger!

LOL.. being retired and not worried about needing to fire at somebody in 0.2 seconds, I have no worries at all about carrying hammer down on a live round. I shoot single action handguns a lot, have several in 45 Colt and when they come out they are automatically cocked. I do the same with a 1911 with the hammer down. Just a natural deal for me. As to the people who carry hammer down on the empty chamber like the Israelis do, that is just being totally unprepared to me. If events go south, that just takes to much time. And sometimes assaults happen before your are ready, you may only have one hand to fight with, so the gun needs a round in the chamber when the fight starts, seems to me.

About the half-cock you said this "Yeah, there's also the half-cock notch , but they have sheared off' One of my mentors shot himself in the gut when a half cock notch failed. Dan Combs was a legend here in Oklahoma and taught me what I know about actual gun fighting, particularly the fast draw and point shooting. The idea is to fire the first round the instant the gun clears leather and follow up with at least 2 more rounds as the gun is brought to eye level. If the officer or person is facing another and guns are out, then the first round it intended to the belly button the second for the sternum and the third to the upper torso, head or neck. It is actually pretty easy to manage at 25 feet or less.

Anyway, Dan Combs was a Highway Patrol Trooper who went around the nation and put on over 3,000 demonstrations and training programs for both military and civilian officers. If you are not familiar with him, here is an NRA article about him, it says that Bill Jordan considered him his equal. I have heard he was the fastest man alive at that time, but they never squared off so who knows. I have been with him several times when he did his speed demonstration for the public and he was really fast.

Anyway he taught me much of what I know.Profile: Oklahoma Highway Patrol's Captain Dan Combs | An Official Journal Of The NRA (americanrifleman.org) If you have never seen his speed there are a bunch of videos out there. (1) Dan Combs safety demonstration w/quickdraw shooting - Bing video at about 14:30 on the video he fires 12 rounds from a 1911 with one reload in about 5 seconds.

Anyway Dan used the half cock on the 1911 as a way to make the gun safe when he was practicing his draw. He told me that he fired a few rounds, put the gun on half cock and just stuffed inside his waste band. When he did the gun fired and shot him in the gut. He loaded up and drove himself to the hospital. They took out a bunch of his gut. I am aware that some guns will lock on the half cock but it you put hard pressure on the trigger, the hammer will fall.. I trusted Dan when he said it fell off the half cock and fired. For that reason, I never use or rely on the half cock. Some guns will not fire from the half cock some will. The officers model I showed above will lock on the half cock notch and about 3 pounds of pressure will pull the trigger but there is very little spring pressure. The Corbon model pictured above has a sold half cock about 1/.4 inch back and it locks up solid. You can carry it safely in that position. Anyway just a curious thing the way they can be so different. I have the one I trust but generally do not trust the slot.

So, I can carry either way, hammer down on an empty round or cocked and locked, but either way, I prefer a gun with the grip safety. For me there is just no downside.

 

[45ofcourse]

There is a parallel thread on ts. People who have put in more work than most on this site had that happen. My observation has been that if a shooter hasn't mishandled a ts in their shooting career, whether forgetting it, missing it, or swiping too soon, there's a good chance they do their shooting in rather comfortable and not stressful conditions.

As far as mods to improve the design, armed pros who used 1911 is service towards its run needed wider safeties and extended buttons because they worked in pretty thick gloves.

The pros you mentioned using extended/oversize anything on a 1911 followed the race gun world. They saw the real world advantage to oversize parts. I think you have it backwards. More modern designs MAY have been lead by mil spec requirements.

 

[Gutschott]

Yes, I like them. In fact, I like them on my XD guns as well, all three of them. Never had a problem. YMMV.

 

[YVK]

The pros you mentioned using extended/oversize anything on a 1911 followed the race gun world. They saw the real world advantage to oversize parts. I think you have it backwards. More modern designs MAY have been lead by mil spec requirements.

Doesn't really matter who followed whom. What matters is that guns set up to be carried in drop-leg retention holsters, often times with hoods covering the controls, and operated in gloves started to be emulated by people who would never shoot them in gloves and who stuck them into close-to-the body concealment holsters, and gun makers provided what market wanted. Copying without much thought process.
Those pros also trained not to disengage their oversized thumb safety until gun is on target. The emulating community copied their guns but not their TTPs.
Some of them pinned their grip safety, we've had a pretty long thread about memoirs of a known Delta dude about it.

 

[Maurice-Eley]

I may, once again, be proving my wierd duck status... I am interested in comments, pro, vs, con, on grip safeties,... but, in a different direction to all the posts/threads on failures and fixes.

I seem to be a weirder duck. I am minimalist on grip safeties. I dislike the "whale tail". For that matter, I dislike the "gas pedal" thumb safeties as well. Same for slide stops.

A Government Model grip safety is about the largest I can tolerate, and that's because I'll probably never try to conceal a full size 45 Auto. The "original" 1911 grip safety size/shape is more appealing to me. For carry, I've always nixed even that nub off the back of the original Officers ACP. I've got a Rock Island 3-1/2 incher, and it came with a whale tail. I ended up getting a Colt Commander grip safety and had at it with hand grinder. The idea, for me, is to keep enough there to be able to pull back the hammer to depress the grip safety, so that the pistol can be de-cocked with one hand if need be. And before I get crucified for saying that, please refer to the US Army manual for the Model 1911, which specifically states the same.

 

[mkk41]

LOL.. being retired and not worried about needing to fire at somebody in 0.2 seconds, I have no worries at all about carrying hammer down on a live round. I shoot single action handguns a lot, have several in 45 Colt and when they come out they are automatically cocked. I do the same with a 1911 with the hammer down. Just a natural deal for me.

As to the people who carry hammer down on the empty chamber like the Israelis do, that is just being totally unprepared to me. If events go south, that just takes to much time.

And sometimes assaults happen before your are ready, you may only have one hand to fight with, so the gun needs a round in the chamber when the fight starts, seems to me.

Ahh yes , single action revolvers! I love them too. We must remember that the handgun selection board that chose the 1911 were mostly Cavalry officers for whom the Colt SAA was THE sidearm! They too believed in the old thumb-buster , but the hammer on that new-fangled self-loader came back every shot. Safe enough hammer down on a live round in the holster with it's inertia firing pin , but how do you lower that hammer safely in the saddle without shooting yourself in the leg or your horse in the head? Add a thumb safety!

Hammer down on an empty chamber with 5rds in the mag was written in blood/stone Navy Regs unless it was a heightened security situation , at which time those who knew how to handle the 1911A1 loaded up their mags, cocked & locked. Actually , most of the time we weren't allowed to insert a mag into the weapon unless, , ,


However you choose to accessorize and carry your 1911 should be however YOU train and feel most comfortable and proficient with. No right or wrong , no matter what the internet experts say.

 

[mkk41]

he officers model I showed above will lock on the half cock notch and about 3 pounds of pressure will pull the trigger but there is very little spring pressure.

That's what I alluded to when I mentioned the Ser.80 hammer. The so-called half-cock notch is no longer a notch , but a safety shelf. The hammer rests much lower in it's arc than the old style , barely off the FP and is not held captive. You can pull the trigger and drop the hammer , but it's not back far enough or under enough pressure to light a primer.

 

[mdslye]

When I competed (a looong time ago) it was learn to use the 1911 as built then find a national match, used and have it rebuilt buy Clarke or Swenson there where others just as good. Grip safeties where never, pinned, taped or tied or fooled with. The humps and bumps on today's safeties are another cure for a non-existent problem its marketing. The only real cure is practice.

 

[USMM guy]

Well according to the poll. It looks like +/- three to one in favor of grip safeties. In reflection here and otherwise I would have to put myself in this category. Interestingly enough I have long been a fan of the third generation S&W autos. The DA/SA setup works well for me providing the hammer is spurred to allow manual cocking, not all of them are. But this would appear to eliminate any need for a grip safety, whether just perceived or otherwise.

 

[mkk41]

The humps and bumps on today's safeties are another cure for a non-existent problem its marketing.

What fits your hand might not fit someone elses.

 

[James]

Well according to the poll. It looks like +/- three to one in favor of grip safeties. In reflection here and otherwise I would have to put myself in this category. Interestingly enough I have long been a fan of the third generation S&W autos. The DA/SA setup works well for me providing the hammer is spurred to allow manual cocking, not all of them are. But this would appear to eliminate any need for a grip safety, whether just perceived or otherwise.

I can't speak for every gun design out there as I haven't had them all but typically any DA/SA gun with a hinged lever trigger that pulls the trigger bar forward to release the single action sear has adequate resistance to inertia activation of the trigger.

 

[YVK]

...coupled with an fp block on almost every da/sa gun.

 

[Ranger4]

I seem to be a weirder duck. I am minimalist on grip safeties. I dislike the "whale tail". For that matter, I dislike the "gas pedal" thumb safeties as well. Same for slide stops.

A Government Model grip safety is about the largest I can tolerate, and that's because I'll probably never try to conceal a full size 45 Auto. The "original" 1911 grip safety size/shape is more appealing to me. For carry, I've always nixed even that nub off the back of the original Officers ACP. I've got a Rock Island 3-1/2 incher, and it came with a whale tail. I ended up getting a Colt Commander grip safety and had at it with hand grinder. The idea, for me, is to keep enough there to be able to pull back the hammer to depress the grip safety, so that the pistol can be de-cocked with one hand if need be. And before I get crucified for saying that, please refer to the US Army manual for the Model 1911, which specifically states the same.

View attachment 625743

I have never had an issue with the nub on the officer model. In fact, I had a duty gun that was commander size and found that I could fire my personal officer's model rapid fire better and more accurate than the commander style. I would suggest try firing them side by side as fast as you can. That little nub is what I think makes it faster because it cuts down on muzzle flip. There ain't nuthin wrong with the basic 1911, except maybe the sights for older people.

That said I have several modified with beaver tails, if you shoot the 10mm or 400 Corbon loaded to the max, the regular hammer will split the web of your hand and every round after about the first 5 will spurt blood. Ask me how I know. I have added extended controls which make make the gun faster. Like you say just personal preference.

 

[James]

...coupled with an fp block on almost every da/sa gun.

FP blocks are typically disabled when the trigger is pulled, so they do not prevent inertia pull of the trigger. If the trigger bar/drawbar was connected under the trigger hinge like the Glock, DA/SA guns would probably have a grip safety or a "dingus."

While not DA/SA, the Sig P320 is an example of a pistol with a FP Block that would still inertia fire as a result of a rather small drop.

 

[YVK]

FP blocks are typically disabled when the trigger is pulled, so they do not prevent inertia pull of the trigger. If the trigger bar/drawbar was connected under the trigger hinge like the Glock, DA/SA guns would probably have a grip safety or a "dingus."

For DA/SA trigger to move, it needs to overcome a pressure from mainspring and trigger return spring. The former alone is between 16 and 23 lbs, resulting in at least 10 lbs of pressure required to move the trigger on duty guns. Would that not be sufficient to hold it in place and safe from inertia, regardless how the bar was connected?

 

[USMM guy]

For DA/SA trigger to move, it needs to overcome a pressure from mainspring and trigger return spring. The former alone is between 16 and 23 lbs, resulting in at least 10 lbs of pressure required to move the trigger on duty guns. Would that not be sufficient to hold it in place and safe from inertia, regardless how the bar was connected?

I would certainly think that it would be.