The first case is showing signs of excessive pressure. What is happening is the primer is expanding into the firing pin hole and leaving that resulting flattened look. A little bit of shaving from the primer is probably clogging your firing pin channel and causing the misfires.

A few things to look at.

1) Stop using that ammo. It may be high pressure for your gun.

2) Have a gunsmith inspect your firing pin hole. You may have an oversize firing pin hole or a barrel chamber throat that is too tight and causing excess pressure. In my experience a chamber reaming by a competent pistolsmith will solve this pressure issue.

 

Thank you sir.....much appreciated.

 

Some thoughts:

1. Is this a new reload formula, or one you have been using without issues before, everything the same except for now using the S&B primers?
   
2. Related to the above, does this reload formula give the same results even when a different primer is used?
   
3. Is this reload by the book i.e. taken from a published load, within the min/max range for that powder with that weight of bullet?
   
4. What bullet is this? Is it one you have used before?
   
5. Regarding sizing and COAL, do these reloads easily drop fully into a case gauge; the chamber of the barrel?
   
6. Do you get this result in this pistol with any factory ammo (including +P) or other by the book reloads?
   
7. Are the primers fully flush with the base of the case, or are they slightly proud?
   
8. Is your case length and COAL within spec?

The first fired case does appear to show excessive pressure, but alternately, you can have excessive pressures without such signs, and primers like that for other reasons.

I would at least have the answers to the above questions before I went to the gunsmith. And I would want to be sure that it isn't the ammunition that is causing the problem instead of the pistol. Assuming there is excessive pressure AT firing, that doesn't explain a 10% failure rate to ignite primers.

 

Some thoughts:

1. Is this a new reload formula, or one you have been using without issues before, everything the same except for now using the S&B primers? Just started reloading so yes this was my initial formula.
   
2. Related to the above, does this reload formula give the same results even when a different primer is used? I did some with CCI primers but did not shoot any of these in the MKIII
   
3. Is this reload by the book i.e. taken from a published load, within the min/max range for that powder with that weight of bullet? I used the information of the Hodgdon's site for working this load up. With 123 gr Berrys plated FMJ with Titegroup powder calls for 3.6 to 4.1 grains of powder and 1.150 C.O.L. I went with 3.8 grains of titegroup initially but have since gone down to 3.6 grains. My C.O.L. is between 1.14 and 1.15 on these loads. I have only used the 3.8 grain loads with the MKIII and had the failures.
   
4. What bullet is this? Berrys Plated 123 gr RN. Is it one you have used before? Only one I have used.
   
5. Regarding sizing and COAL, do these reloads easily drop fully into a case gauge; the chamber of the barrel? Yes. I check each reloaded bullet with a case gauge. I just checked 5 of the unfired loads and they all drop in to the barrel easily and have a little wiggle room to spare.
   
6. Do you get this result in this pistol with any factory ammo (including +P) or other by the book reloads? I didn't have any factory ammo at the time to test so not sure. All I had used before was factory and never had an issue with the pistol. The next opportunity I get I will shoot some factory loads and see what happens. I have never shot +P out of any of my pistols. At what point, if any, in the load range for titegroup (3.6 to 4.1) would it be considered plus P?
   
7. Are the primers fully flush with the base of the case, or are they slightly proud? Flush
   
   
8. Is your case length and COAL within spec?

The first fired case does appear to show excessive pressure, but alternately, you can have excessive pressures without such signs, and primers like that for other reasons. From 1.14 to 1.15. Hodgdon calls out 1.15 for C.O.L.

I would at least have the answers to the above questions before I went to the gunsmith. And I would want to be sure that it isn't the ammunition that is causing the problem instead of the pistol. Assuming there is excessive pressure AT firing, that doesn't explain a 10% failure rate to ignite primers.

I answered your questions up in the quote section.

I have shot these loads out of three pistols without problems ( 92FS, MKII, Star M30) but I realize not all pistols are the same. I will shoot some factory loads and see what kind of results I get and take a look at the primer strikes. If that looks good I will try some of my loads with 3.6 grains of titegroup.

Thanks for your help Jager. Any other recommendations?

 

This is sort of a long shot explanation but try placing some of your loaded ammo on a hard surface. Do the cases flat on the surface? Or do some of them rock a little... if so you are having primers not seat fully into the flash hole...

The first pic suggests excessive pressure, whilst the second case has a primer that looks like a lot of factory ammo... the 9x19 is a high pressure pistol cartridge to start out with...

I would also check the overall length of the loaded cartridges... a load with the bullet seated just a little too deep can send pressures through the roof.

Have you de-crimped the cases before loading? If so what method did you use?

Of course it would be helpful to know if the Mk.III has the same experience with factory ammo...

FWIW

CHuck

 

This is sort of a long shot explanation but try placing some of your loaded ammo on a hard surface. Do the cases flat on the surface? Or do some of them rock a little... if so you are having primers not seat fully into the flash hole... Checked about 30 random loads from the same batch and all rest flat

The first pic suggests excessive pressure, whilst the second case has a primer that looks like a lot of factory ammo... the 9x19 is a high pressure pistol cartridge to start out with... I'm not doubting what you guys are saying this looks like excessive pressure but it seems to me there would be some evidence of a firing pin strike. To be sure I understand the pressure is pushing out the dent in the primer from the firing pin? These are the other fired cases from the ones I shot this past weekend. As you can see they are all completed flat. I would think if pressure was pushing the dent out and pressing the base of the case against the face of the slide the deformed area where the firing pin struck would not be completely flat. This is obviously new territory for me so I may be way off in my thinking.
I would also check the overall length of the loaded cartridges... a load with the bullet seated just a little too deep can send pressures through the roof. Those same 30 rounds I checked all were in the 1.143 to 1.154 range c.o.l. except one that was 1.133

Have you de-crimped the cases before loading? If so what method did you use? I use a Dillon 550 progressive and use the Dillon decrimp die that came in the set.

Of course it would be helpful to know if the Mk.III has the same experience with factory ammo...I still need to go shoot some factory ammo in it. I can't help but think it is an issue with my reloads. I have shot probably 300-400 factory rounds through it before starting to reload and never had an issue.

FWIW

CHuck

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

I think that Wilson Rep may have been right when he said that there may be a bit primer brass in the firing pin hole. The whole thing might have begun with the lighter hammer spring, depending on how light it was and the weight or wear of the recoil spring in combination. If the gun was unlocking prematurely with the lighter hammer spring and the firing pin hole got a bit of brass from the primer, it could have possibly bound up the firing pin and initially replacing the hammer spring with the original might not have been able to overcome this. I would check to make sure the FP hole is clear, keep the original hammer spring, and also check your reloads as suggested.

 

I did take out the firing pin expecting to see something obvious wrong but didn't. I do recall the spring and pin being dirtier than I expected. I probably wasn't really paying attention enough while cleaning it to have noticed a small sliver.

 

Interested to see how this turns out.

 

That has happened to me about lite strikes. Pulled firing pin, cleaned out and have not had a problem since.
Mike

 

I finally got a chance to shoot some more rounds to try and figure out what is going on with these reloads. First a shot 5 tula steel cased and then five American eagle brass all factory loads. They all appear to me as good looking strikes to the primer. Then I shot three reloads that I loaded with just 3.6 grains of titegroup which is at the bottom of the range.

This is the load:

124 gr berrys plated RN
1.51 c.o.l.
3.6 grains titegroup
Sellier and Bellot small pistol primer

The only thing different from this load and the load that was causing the results in the original pictures in this post is I reduced the powder by about .2 grains.

You can see that for each of the reloads the primer has been breached. On the primer in the top right I dug out the residue with a needle just to see what it looked like.

I haven't tried any reloads that have CCI primers. Not sure that would even make a difference.

 

I finally got a chance to shoot some more rounds to try and figure out what is going on with these reloads. First a shot 5 tula steel cased and then five American eagle brass all factory loads. They all appear to me as good looking strikes to the primer. Then I shot three reloads that I loaded with just 3.6 grains of titegroup which is at the bottom of the range...

...I haven't tried any reloads that have CCI primers. Not sure that would even make a difference.

So discussion about misfires with this load seems to have disappeared? Or is that a function of only shooting a minimum number of loads while testing - not enough to make the misfire problem reoccur?

First, I used to accept as fact that some primers were harder than others. Then a year or so ago, some guys got curious and actually did some controlled testing of hardness. I don't remember exactly, other that the tests kind of threw accepted beliefs out the window. For whatever that is worth. The high pressure boys haven't stopped favoring CCI primers, however.

So, as before, continue testing variables. In no particular order:

• You've fired factory ammo in this pistol with no issue. Fire this reload combination in your other 9mms and see if you get the same result.
  
• Change the primer out in the reload with a couple of other makes of primer, all else the same. Load enough to fire in your other 9mms at the same time.
  
• Change the powder out for another of similar burning rate. The charge weight will not be the same, of course, but it takes the current powder out as a variable. Load enough to fire in your other 9mms at the same time. 231, Bullseye, etc. Anything out of the reloading manuals will do.
  
• Change out the bullet for another cast/plated of similar weight - I'd leave that for the last because a set of verniers and your scale confirms size/weight of the bullets.

 

Is that a typo on your c.o.l. ?

 

Yes....typo. S/B 1.15

 

I don't have any facts but my observation based on past experiences in loading and in retail leads me to believe that CCI primers seem to be "harder" .

 

First, a pierced primer is a warning sign of high pressure, absent a defective primer... so use caution with that load...

Looking at the Federal cases in your pics I would say there is a problem with your load

I think the first thing you need to do is start reducing the number of variables until you can isolate the problem. So, I suggest the following.

1. Determine if the primer is defective or if something else is going on. Try loading some ammo using the same data as before but with a different brand of primer. If the result is a pierced primer you can rule out the S&B primer being defective (defective primers do happen... it is uncommon, but it happens.) If you get pressure signs with the other brand of primer you have a problem with your loading process oir components.

2. Try loading a few rounds using a lower powder charge in the moderate to low range. If this high pressure signs go away you should verify your scale's accuracy and verify the accuracy of your powder measure. These are not often wrong, gut it happens. Also try some of your original loads in a different gun to see if you get the pressure signs. If the pressure signs go away your loading process or equipment is suspect. Loading bullets too deep in a 9x19 case can cause dramatic pressure increases.

3. Also try using a micrometer to measure the diameter of your bullets... an out of spec bullet can cause pressure spikes.

Basically you want to eliminate each variable one at a time... this will lead you to your problem... Only change one variable at a time... The main thing is change only one variable at a time...

Please keep us posted...

Chuck

 

I'll start working through the variables and report back my results. Thanks

 

I registered just now because I wanted to comment on this, but have been following the forum for a bit.

I had the same issue on a batch of new freedom munitions shells I was testing a few months ago before placing a larger order. I was using a MKIII that I'd just purchased and had maybe 150 rounds downrange.

I had one box loaded with the 124gr XTP hollow points & that after the first few shots had a failure to fire, which then did on a second strike. Noticed the same funny primer strike as the OP. It happened a couple more time before the pistol actually locked up.

After clearing and disassembly I found a small brass "dot" wedged onto of the barrel which had prevented it from going into battery, I wish I had taken a picture of it. Once reassembled the pistol was fine, but I ran the remaining rounds through my VP9 with no issues.

Wierd as it sounds the only explanation I could think of is that the primer cup material was occassionally delaminating and adhering to the tip of the firing pin and then transfering to the next primer, at least until the one that liberated into the action. I didn't see any cases where the primer was fully pierced

No issue on the Freedom munitions reloads

 

Can you post a picture of one of the unfired rounds?
I suspect too heavy crimp.

 

At fist when I began reloading I found I was likely over crimping. When I had a round not pass inspection I would use my bullet puller and noticed a small ring/dent on the bullet wall caused by the crimp. These rounds were not part of the ones possibly over crimped. According to the bullet manufacturer the crimp should not leave a mark, so I backed off until no indentation happens now. I also can't press the bullet in any further by pushing the tip of the bullet up against the bench. So with that said I'm thinking I'm not over crimping but I could be wrong.

 

Certainly doesn't look over crimped. If the data you have posted is correct, those loads should be fine, but they are definitely showing signs of over pressure.
Have you verified your scale is zeroed? Not trying to be condescending, just trying to help solve the mystery.

 

They have functioned fine in two other pistols.

Yes. I have used the calibration weight that came with the scale to calibrate each time I power it up. I am using the Frankford arsenal DS750 digital scale.

 

'I thought maybe the primers were a little harder than what I had been shooting with factory ammo, so I removed the reduced power hammer spring that the MKIII had and put back in a new factory full power hammer spring thinking this would solve it.'

This statement implies a misunderstanding on the purpose of the extra-power firing pin spring. It is there mainly to eliminate the possibility of a slam-fire and also to be able to return the firing pin under dirty conditions. If you had light primer strikes, the normal thinking would be to reduce the power of the firing pin spring and/or increase the power of the hammer spring. Using a higher-strength firing pin spring in the face of light primer strikes would be decidedly questionable.

 

I believe you are not reading my statement correctly. I have not fooled with the firing pin spring and did not ever state that....I only mentioned the hammer spring.

 

I agree....checking with a balance scale is a must to rule that out.

 

Didn't you do that already?

As discussed here a couple of times already, electronic scales are nice, but can be problematic for a number of reasons, some controllable some not.

One of the big issues can be with what you are probably doing - trickle charging small weight charges when doing load development. A lot of electronic scales are quite precise when you dump the charge you want to weigh into the pan, or put a bullet you want to weigh on the pan, etc. But when you sit there trickling, trickling, trickling... some of the electronic scales act almost like they're stuck, not responding to the powder going into the scale pan. By the time they respond, they're actually well over.

Some manufacturers include a warning that their electronic scale is not for use trickling charges to weight.

Then there's the effect that static electricity can have, lights nearby the area you are weighing, etc.

If all you have is electronic, you can manage these potential weaknesses: zero, trickle to weight, dump powder in case, re-zero, dump charge back in pan to confirm weight, then back into case for bullet seating. Pain in the ass, but not too bad for the relatively few loads to establish what powder charge works best. After that, it's dial the powder measure in for that weight and start cranking the handle, throwing a charge in the pan every once in a while to ensure everything is still good.

I have reverted back to beam balances for trickle charging i.e. charges in centerfire rifles. They are just as fast once you have the desired weight set on the balance beam - it's when you're determining an unknown weight when they're slow.

The electronic scale is used when I want to dump a charge into the pan to verify the weight, or weigh bullets, broadheads, etc for weight variations.

You just have to manage your setting, and double check when you're not crystal clear on anything - including your equipment. The Dillons are awesome time saving machines, but they're almost so easy to use that people get sloppy from using them.

Probably lots of discussions you can review online regarding electronic scales if you start with a google search.

 

How many consecutive checks do you make very consistent metering of your powder? I make sure I get ten good throws of my weight before I start loading. I'm probably a nut, but I randomly check my powder to ensure it stays consistent.

 

I have encountered this one time before as well. It was on a gun I built for a cusomer. He bought a bunch of ammo (turned out to be reloaded) and exactly that problem was happening. He returned the gun to me with several rounds of ammo, and sure enough, it did it for me.

I didn't have the time to diagnose his reloading issues. I fired 13 different factory loads, and returned the brass to him, and told him the issue is ammo related.

The most common issue I run into with handloaded semi-auto ammo is related to COL and the taper crimp. My guess is his taper crimp was way off to non-existent and it prevented the ammunition from seating all the way into the chamber. The primer strike pushed the cartridge deeper into the chamber, then a second strike would ignite the round.

And that's what the guy later found out.

 

mainer, I won't attempt to diagnose the issue from afar, but will mention a site that may be of interest to you as regards primer issues. Fellow named Brad Miller at 38Super.net. Primers are discussed, with photos, in the factory ammo section. BTW, within my humble experience the CCI #500 primers do resist evidence of high pressure better than any other standard small pistol primer I have used. Just the opposite is the standard Remington #1 1/2 primer. I would not personally use the #1 1/2 in anything giving higher pressures than 38 Special......ymmv

PS, he also did some testing with various primers and has a chart describing the pressure signs, or lack of, with progressively higher powder charges in 9mm.

 

Interesting thread!

I just took my Mk III, that I very seldom shoot, to the range today and had a light strike on the fifth round. Hit it again, and it went off. A few rounds later had to do the same exercise.

Looked at the cases and they look exactly like the ones in the OP.

Guess what...S&B primers.

The ammo I was using is my standard 124gr Acme RN re-load that I shoot lots of in my P226, SP2022, CZ, and Beretta's. 1.100 COAL and they plunk test just fine in the Hi Power, which I find pretty much mirrors the CZ chamber.

I'm pretty sure that it's due to the S&B primers having either thinner cup, or just being softer, as I had a similar issue when I switched to S&B primers with .40. I tried a CCI primer and the issue went away. I switched powder and went back to the S&B's without issue.

I am going to try the same load in the Hi Power tomorrow morning using a CCI primer rather than the S&B and see what it looks like.

 

Luckily I figured out I made a serious mistake with my reloads before I injured myself or damaged any of my pistols. I was using a digital scale to dial in the powder dispenser in my Dillon and had it set on g (grams) instead of gn (grains). Very stupid mistake on my part.

 

Close call indeed. I was thinking about upgrading to a digital scale but I am thinking I should apply the K.I.S.S. principle and stick with what works for me.

 

Mainer86,
Glad you solved your mystery, and no damage to yourself or your guns.
I never understood why a dedicated reloading scale also had the option for grams, seems like an accident waiting to happen. Thanks for sharing the answer, and maybe it can provide a warning for others to double check their scale settings.

 

Yes....that was a hot load. I found that 3.7 grains of titegroup with my S&B primers wasnt quite enough to reliably eject cases from my 92FS but ran great in my hi powers and other pistols. I bumped it up to 3.9 grains (which is the middle of the load range for this bullet) and now they all run great.

 

Per the original post, I took my Hi-Power to the range and also had several rounds not fire. After multiple strikes, they would finally discharge. Back at home, I did the same trouble shooting check that mainer86 did by taking a punch and pushing on the firing pin while I held the hammer and actuated the trigger. I could feel the firing pin catch on something within the channel and wouldn't move beyond the retaining plate. I disassembled the slide, removed the firing pin and spring, reassembled, the did the same test. Nothing appeared to be in the channel that would catch the pin and the firing pin safety block was not interfering with the firing pin. But when I re-assembled, the pin was catching on something again. Any ideas as to what's going on? I guess I need to remove the firing pin safety to be sure that's not the problem, but it sure didn't appear to be.

 

Here's a follow up to my previous post. I finally disassembled the firing pin safety and there didn't appear to be any issues. I am fortunate, in that I own two BHPs, so after I reassembled the slide, I swapped slides and headed back to the range. Three magazines later, no issues whatsoever. So what is different? I had installed an C&S Type II Chamfered Commander Hammer a few years ago on the problem gun, but hadn't experienced any misfires up until now. So I pulled out the C&S hammer and got out the original spur hammer to compare. The spur hammer is .10 oz. heavier than the C&S. That doesn't seem like much, but I put the spur hammer back in the problem gun and once more, headed out to the range. Three magazines later, no issues. Who would have thought that .10 oz. would make that kind of difference? I might purchase a new hammer spring and strut and switch back to the C&S hammer, thinking that the spring might be losing some strength. Any thoughts?