You know what they say? There are more than a 1000 Singers that have been found than the 500 that were manufactured. LOL!

 

Yep. Of the 500 originally made, there are only 2,176 left in circulation. The ad does mention the magic words, though: 'Holy Grail'. You know that once that happens, all the stops are now off!!! Only the amateurs use 'rare' or 'desirable' when advertising. The pros go straight to 'Holy Grail'!!!!

 

Yep. I was hoping to hear the experts weigh in on this one. In the description, there's discussion of the originality of the msh.

 

That is way too much coin for a Singer without the original grips. Those alone would be very expensive and difficult to source.

 

If it does not have the original grips then that makes the whole gun suspect in my book.

 

Wow. Incredible specimen. With just enough wear to give it character, but not enough to take away from the beautiful finish.

 

I'm writing out my vulcanized check as we speak...........

 

As in vulcanized RUBBER? will it bounce to the moon and back?

 

They have it listed on consignment, which is really a shame cuz I'd love to see it go to auction on GB.
The piranhas are fun to watch.

 

There is a forum member who owns several Singers. Perhaps he'll comment about the listed pistol.

 

It don’t matter how nice, original, rare, etc it is. I live on a beer budget. Even if I didn’t I could by a lot of ammo for that. Maybe even enough to shoot like Jerry Miculek. 🤣🤣

 

Or alec baldwin.

 

For a quarter-million, that's a lot of Nighthawks, Baers, Alchemy's, SVI's, and Staccato's, all with enough ammo to overload my 3/4-ton truck's payload capacity.

To the more experienced here, is there any real precedent to suggest that even a 100% correct Singer would command that kind of price? Seems outrageous to me, but all my "collectible" guns are still current or very recent production.

 

To the more experienced here, is there any real precedent to suggest that even a 100% correct Singer would command that kind of price? Seems outrageous to me, but all my "collectible" guns are still current or very recent production.

Documented Finest Condition U.S. Singer Manufacturing Co. Model

Documented Finest Condition U.S. Singer Manufacturing Co. Model 1911A1 Semi-Automatic Pistol with Two Extra Magazines and HistoryThis is the finest condition known example of a U.S. Model 1911A1 semi-automatic pistol that was from the 500 pistols manufactured by the Singer Manufacturing Co...

www.rockislandauction.com

The “Price Realized” includes all of Rock Island Auction’s fees, but apparently to some, money is no object.

 

I don't know much about 1911's but I have heard of the legendary Singer. Something about that pistol in the picture though just isn't right. I can't put a finger on it but the gun's steel is flawless with no scratches at all but the wear on the bluing are scratchy wear marks in strategic places. Not saying it isn't the real deal but it looks suspect to me.

In the fine art world there have been master fakes that have sold at the finest auction houses (Sotheby's Christy's, etc) and verified by the world's best art appraisers and the works fooled them all...for a while. A movie/documentary well worth watching is "Beltracchi: The Art of Forgery". Fascinating, absolutely fascinating how this man fooled the finest galleries, museums and art appraiser for years until it all came crashing down.

The documentary actually has Beltracchi showing the world how he did it. Great stuff. He went so far as to collect dust from key places in Europe by buying expensive period paintings from the forged painting's origin locale and placing that dust in his forgery. What if the same level of master expertise were applied to Colt's?

In my opinion it would be more difficult to forge a 150 year old master painting than a pistol. But what do I know. Machining today is so precision that almost anything is possible.

 

I don't know much about 1911's but I have heard of the legendary Singer. Something about that pistol in the picture though just isn't right. I can't put a finger on it but the gun's steel is flawless with no scratches at all but the wear on the bluing are scratchy wear marks in strategic places. Not saying it isn't the real deal but it looks suspect to me.

In the fine art world there have been master fakes that have sold at the finest auction houses (Sotheby's Christy's, etc) and verified by the world's best art appraisers and the works fooled them all...for a while. A movie/documentary well worth watching is "Beltracchi: The Art of Forgery". Fascinating, absolutely fascinating how this man fooled the finest galleries, museums and art appraiser for years until it all came crashing down.

The documentary actually has Beltracchi showing the world how he did it. Great stuff. He went so far as to collect dust from key places in Europe by buying expensive period paintings from the forged painting's origin locale and placing that dust in his forgery. What if the same level of master expertise were applied to Colt's?

In my opinion it would be more difficult to forge a 150 year old master painting than a pistol. But what do I know. Machining today is so precision that almost anything is possible.

This is a pretty good observation, and not the first time that the subject has been broached here. It is well understood by most people that really take an interest in these rare guns. That the fake guns are all over the place and additionally that some of them are very, very well done. This is well understood which is unfortunate for any number of reasons. Not least of which is that if you are in a position and have an inclination to avail yourself of one of these fine guns. Then you either have to really know what you are looking at or get someone that does to do an evaluation for you.

 

I've never been rich enough to own a Singer, but I've been privileged to handle three of them and I have a large number of high-resolution pictures of legitimate examples. This one checks all the boxes for correctness, but again the grips are wrong which they've admitted.

 

So this would kind of beg the question. Not necessarily for this example. But as you say this one checks all the boxes for correctness. So how good have the fakers actually become? Will they bear up under a lot of high-resolution scrutiny or not? We are talking about some real money here.
My late brother, a pretty high end attorney used to provide services to a guy that collected high end Lugers. And during the course of a conversation my brother asked this guy how you could tell the difference between a genuine example of a rare gun and a fake. And the reply given was that you could not tell the difference.

 

I dunno nothing. But if I owned the real deal what prevents me from commissioning fakes so close that the casual visitor who asks to see the original wouldn't know the diff thereby adding another layer of security to safeguard the original.

 

Personally I would rather have 100 $2500 GI 1911's for the same money as that gun. When I collected Lugers I avoided Navy Carbines and Krieghoff guns because I always figured it would be easier to sell off lower price guns than one expensive one.

 

USMM, there are some very subtle details that would be extremely hard to fake. I won't say what they are for obvious reasons. But once you know what a real Singer looks like the fakes become a lot easier to spot.

 

Perhaps that is the case dsk. But I think that if you have a person that knows what these subtle details are. Then if they have the wherewithal to do so, then they could reproduce it. After all we are only talking about nineteen forties technology here.
Going forward I think that provenance on these guns is going to become more and more important. For example, I think a gun from say the Gordon Bethune collection is more than likely going to be accurately represented and accepted as such. Whereas a gun from an unknown source is going to be more suspect. We are already seeing that now with high end guns. Going up for sale they will normally post that they are from the collection of so and so. There are reasons for this.

 

We have seen what a bare foot 9 year old Pilipino or Pakistani kid using a flat file and a dirt floor can replicate. Black markets around the world are flooded with fakes and forgeries. 99.9% have obvious tell tales, but for the money on high end items there is no telling what can be replicated and passed off to most collectors.

(1) How Guns are Made in Pakistan 🇵🇰 - YouTube

(1) Underworld Inc: Illegal Hand Made Colt 1911 Pistols Ghost Gun - YouTube

 

I've watched quite a few of Legacy Collectibles Utube vids. Most of his stories, descriptions and appraisements are a bit, ummm, suspect!

 

I think these Singers would be a great investment. I wouldn’t mind buying one if I knew it was legit and perfect. I will put it on a display between two sewing machines with accent lighting and spools of colorful thread.

 

Can't comment on the particular gun in question, but the issue with fakes is that eventually when the values of the originals get so high, then the cost of creating the fakes no longer becomes an impediment.

Consider how much the very best custom built 1911's cost. Not even close to a quarter of a million. Now consider how much the very best custom reproduction firearms go for, say a Turnbull Model 1886 at around $10.5K. There's a lot of room for profit there for the forger, which also translates into a lot of time that he can put into research and creation.

I once was a pretty serious militaria collector (and still dabble in the hobby), but even 20-30 years ago the prices of some original uniform artifacts had become so high that near perfect fakes had become quite common. Nowadays, the prices for originals have gone up even more, and the fakers have become so good that even experts will argue endlessly about the originality of this or that artifact. With so many original items having been produced and the constant examples of very common and real incidents of newly found or "discovered" items, even provenance is not something you can hang your hat on.

The rare and highly desirable originals that command the very highest prices are the ones that have been held in collections for the longest and which have at least unbroken, provable chain of ownership that can be traced back to before the appearance of high-quality fakes (that is, back when the prices of the originals didn't match the costs of making high-quality fakes). This has created a two-tier valuation system in the collecting market with the known, unimpeachable originals at the top and "newly discovered" ones at the bottom.

It's possible that such a valuation system could develop here with some selective, highly desirable and collectable 1911's. Unimpeachable collector's provenance setting the standard between those guns fetching the very highest prices and others entering the collector's market at lower valuations simply because they can't be proven (or disproven) as originals.

 

I guess I'll wait for a singer to show up in a CMP auction.

 

I like to imagine what a GI might have had to say upon realizing his government issued sidearm was a Singer. I wonder if there was any complaining about receiving a gun made by a "sewing machine company". If only they knew what it would be worth today LOL

 

1. How would he know?
2. Why would he care?

 

Do you think the lucky winner will.... you know.... 'make it his own' after taking it home? Seems like a good base for a build of some sort. Definitely it needs to be cut for a red dot and have some sort of light rail welded on. A set of tactical sights, some G-10 panels, and perhaps a Cerakote in a stylish tactical shade of Sniper Taupe. With those much-needed upgrades it might just be worth another $10 - $15k!!!

 

My Dad spent 40 years working for the Singer company. He was at the Elizabeth NJ plant working as a machinist when those pistols were being made. After he passed I hoped to find a prototype in his stash of things, but no such luck!
Danny

 

Most likely, many GI accounts of their government issued sidearm being a SINGER = a US&S. ??

 

At that price, I expect it to go to a collector. Not a GUN collector who studies the history and shoots, just somebody wealthy who wants another showpiece to go along with his Bugatti, Picasso, and Patek Philippe.

 

Since Singer .45s were never actually marked "Singer" one has to wonder how some old vet would even have known. Several of them popped up for sale in recent years when the old WW2 vet passed on and his family had an estate sale, but for the most part I think pretty much all the surviving examples are now known to collectors.

 

When a pistol such as this one is offered for sale at a very high fixed price, it pretty much eliminates any interested collectors who can have no other involvement than to sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn and sour grapes. However if the pistol was listed on an auction that starts at 1 cent such as JACKTHEDOG, the collecting world could then see what the true value of the pistol is. Perhaps JACKTHEDOG will put a Singer 1911A1 up for auction and we can all see what it is worth. That would be exciting.
Best Karl