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Sticky for all Colt USMC CQB/ M45 FACTUAL information

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#801 · (Edited)
mlin said:
1913 standard was not the reason why Colt M45A1 has bulkier dust cover. The prototype submission to USMC has skinnier frame rail and failed the torture testing. Frame in the area was cracked during the testing. Colt went back to beef up the area and add dual recoil spring setup to reduce likelihood of premature cracks. Hence the new look and accepted by USMC with the new design.
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Yes and No, the rail had to be lowered to beef up the area of the dust cover to prevent the cracking they did experience during test and development, that resulted in a larger block and more metal under the dust cover. But the reason it was cracking was because the Mil-Stnd required such a tall and deep cut that created the cracking.

Chicken or the egg argument, but prototypes are the start that go under test and development, with the design changed during that from the results of testing and the requirements given the contractor. Granted designing an aircraft is far more complicated than a pistol, but with military aircraft acquisition that I am familiar with, you find during the test and development, that you're not only changing the design of the prototype to fix the problems that testing found, you are also reviewing the design for all the requirements provided by the military side of the process, the mil-specs and mil-standards and insisting the contractor change the final design to meet the evolving requirements, the mil-specs/mil-stds that apply. Military aircraft especially, the submitted prototype doesn't meet all the requirements, specs, standards, that comes later in the test, development and LRIP, operational testing. Aircraft, again for the complexity, I have been apart of many meetings with the Government side insisting upon further review the prototype does not meet Mil-Spec and Mil-Std umpty fratz, etc, etc and the design has to be changed to meet this before the LRIP. The prototype was never meant to be the final product, nor issued as the final product. The LRIP on the other hand, often can be modified and updated to the same as the final product and are done so to be issued as the final product. A dozen $50M aircraft, you don't throw away as lesson learned to get to the final product, they get overhauled to be the same as the final product so they can be issued out to the Fleet. A dozen pistols on the other hand, not such a loss to toss out as a lessons learned on how to produce the final product.

Its awful funny how I drew up a block to attached to a standard frame using the Mil-Std and limited it from cutting into the existing dust cover, resulted in it looking exactly the same as the production M45, might lead you to conclude the rail on the M45 rail is to the Mil-Std.
 
#807 ·
OK, here is something interesting, good for the sticky I guess. After speaking with Colt Archives about this one, I am confident in calling it a Rail Gun that was pre-M45A1 production and taken to shows as the new "Marine" gun in 2012. Rail gun serial, none of the typical data matrix nor U.S. marks, what is very interesting is the "COLT DEFENSE" roll mark on the left hand side of the slide. This roll mark appears in the USMC Technical Manual (which features at least three different prototypes in various states of disassembly).

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Older box (correct for 2012) with hand written label over a printed factory label.

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Here are some pics comparing it's innards to an Issued Decomm (Fox Company). I was surprised to find it had the Delta Elite delrin guide rod, but maybe I shouldn't have been that surprised. Other differences are in the slide stop, the barrel pin, and the spring plug has the retaining punch (which doesn't appear in any production M45A1 I've seen).

Image
 
#808 ·
OctopusHighball said:
OK, here is something interesting, good for the sticky I guess. After speaking with Colt Archives about this one, I am confident in calling it a Rail Gun that was pre-M45A1 production and taken to shows as the new "Marine" gun in 2012. Rail gun serial, none of the typical data matrix nor U.S. marks, what is very interesting is the "COLT DEFENSE" roll mark on the left hand side of the slide. This roll mark appears in the USMC Technical Manual (which features at least three different prototypes in various states of disassembly).

View attachment 710663
View attachment 710662
View attachment 710661
View attachment 710660

Older box (correct for 2012) with hand written label over a printed factory label.

View attachment 710659

Here are some pics comparing it's innards to an Issued Decomm (Fox Company). I was surprised to find it had the Delta Elite delrin guide rod, but maybe I shouldn't have been that surprised. Other differences are in the slide stop, the barrel pin, and the spring plug has the retaining punch (which doesn't appear in any production M45A1 I've seen).

View attachment 710658
Click to expand...
That is a “SWEET “ Colt👍🏻 Thank you for sharing your pic and history of my personal favorite Colt
 
#810 · (Edited)
OctopusHighball said:
....After speaking with Colt Archives about this one, I am confident in calling it a Rail Gun that was pre-M45A1 production and taken to shows as the new "Marine" gun in 2012. Rail gun serial, none of the typical data matrix nor U.S. marks, what is very interesting is the "COLT DEFENSE" roll mark on the left hand side of the slide. This roll mark appears in the USMC Technical Manual (which features at least three different prototypes in various states of disassembly).....
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:unsure: From what I read, and pictures I've seen, the first prototype M45A1's had a rail similar to the rail gun at the time. The rail didn't drop as low as the current M45A1 and Rail Gun, i.e. closer to the dust cover. Compare this with the photos above closely, you will see the bottom of the rail is lower and the whole height of the block is more of the M45A1.
Image

During torture testing of the prototypes the dust cover and rail developed cracks.
So they clearly beefed up the metal on the combo dust cover picatinny rail to address the cracking.
From my own research trying to fabricate a block the same as the M45A1 to attach to the dust cover of a project pistol, the first rail guns / M45A1 prototype, do not meet the 1913 MIl-Spec for Picatinny Rails.
Just look at the cross-section diagram of the mil-spec below and then look back at the early Colt Picatinny Rails, and the current picatinny rail of the M45A1 and Rail Gun.
The early cleary did not meet the spec, there is a required stand-off, the later version has the same standoff, made by the much broader cut in the block, which required the rail be lower even more from the dust cover.
Image

So I haven't found that in writing, but it's clear to me during the development of the M45A1, the combo dust cover/picatinny rail was enlarged to address the cracking during testing, but also changed to meet the 1913 mil-spec for picatinny rails. Which any military acquisition program for a new pistol with a picatinny rail on it, would have insisted on the rail meeting a mil-spec for rails before production model deliveries.....

I've seen again and again, people insisting the Rail Gun and the M45A1 are not the same pistol. But it's clear they are at least using the same forging for both and thus both having the same rail, after they changed it for the M45A1. That makes perfect sense, now lots of other details being different, thus making them two different pistols altogether, yea sure, perfectly true, but the close appearance could come from Colt switching to one forging for several pistol lines that it was applicable to just for economy of scale, which only makes sense.

So, not sure the source/history of your pistol, a good guess is it might have been an undelivered M45A1 prototype, it's not hard to imagine Colt built 310 for a Low Rate Initial Production Order of 300, to keep 10 around for their own testing. Discrepancies the military found, they could confirm themselves with the couple of copies they kept on hand. If that is true, it might make that a really rare and thus valuable pistol. It might be an undelivered prototype for testing for the M45A1. But keep in mind, that is only a guess.

There are far bigger experts, more knowledgeable on the history, than I; so definitely take my guesses with a grain of salt.
 
#811 ·
Yes, there were several development pistols, the first ones were the regular skinny rails. One of the skinny rails also is pictured in the technical manual (one of the at least three I mention). There are at least two other pistols with this larger rail pictured in the technical manual, including serial in the range RG02XXX.
 
#812 ·
And the combo dust cover / picatinny rail that was the skinnier rail, did crack during torture testing... ...that is documented and mentioned several times in the writing about the M45A1...
So a thicker rail to address the cracking is documented....

BUT, I have yet to see anything written that the final version of the rail was changed to meet mil-spec for military rails... ....so that is speculation on my part...
But I did a project gun that I wanted exactly the same rail as the M45A1, yet not a single frame was available with that rail or even close (ok, that is subjective, not close IMO)....
I did my own CAD drawing for that block that could be fit on standard 1911 frame... ....I used the drawings for the 1911 for inside of the block, then mil-spec drawing for the outside of the block, a few approximations based on photos for a few other dimensions, and I'll be damned if the CAD drawing didn't look exactly like rail on the M45A1...
Image


Then it's also just common sense, the military is having it developed for them, they would insist the rail meets the mil-spec for military rails...
BTW, the hole in the drawing is where it literally conforms to and meets the surface of the standard 1911 frame...
I found prototyping companies that will make a prototype for you from CAD drawings, then my heart sank when I saw to CNC machine it, it would be $600 at least...
But, they had a 3D metal printing service that would make it for $79...
It requires smoothing and fitting, but it works...
Image


This is the clone I made myself.... ...that is a standard 1911 frame with my 3d metal printed picatinny rail block attached to it...
Image


Moderators, I kinda went off topic, totally understand if you want to delete... ...or delete it after a couple of days, cause I do think my logic behind the M45A1/Colt distinctive picatinny rail is because its Mil-Spec is very valid, its simply no one has every talked about it before and put it in writing....
 
#813 ·
RickAnderson said:
And the combo dust cover / picatinny rail that was the skinnier rail, did crack during torture testing... ...that is documented and mentioned several times in the writing about the M45A1...
So a thicker rail to address the cracking is documented....

BUT, I have yet to see anything written that the final version of the rail was changed to meet mil-spec for military rails... ....so that is speculation on my part...
But I did a project gun that I wanted exactly the same rail as the M45A1, yet not a single frame was available with that rail or even close (ok, that is subjective, not close IMO)....
I did my own CAD drawing for that block that could be fit on standard 1911 frame... ....I used the drawings for the 1911 for inside of the block, then mil-spec drawing for the outside of the block, a few approximations based on photos for a few other dimensions, and I'll be damned if the CAD drawing didn't look exactly like rail on the M45A1...
View attachment 710695

Then it's also just common sense, the military is having it developed for them, they would insist the rail meets the mil-spec for military rails...
BTW, the hole in the drawing is where it literally conforms to and meets the surface of the standard 1911 frame...
I found prototyping companies that will make a prototype for you from CAD drawings, then my heart sank when I saw to CNC machine it, it would be $600 at least...
But, they had a 3D metal printing service that would make it for $79...
It requires smoothing and fitting, but it works...
View attachment 710696

This is the clone I made myself.... ...that is a standard 1911 frame with my 3d metal printed picatinny rail block attached to it...
View attachment 710697

Moderators, I kinda went off topic, totally understand if you want to delete... ...or delete it after a couple of days, cause I do think my logic behind the M45A1/Colt distinctive picatinny rail is because its Mil-Spec is very valid, its simply no one has every talked about it before and put it in writing....
Click to expand...
Such a cool project! I am shocked that 3D sintered metal printing is so cheap.
 
#814 ·
OctopusHighball said:
Such a cool project! I am shocked that 3D sintered metal printing is so cheap.
Click to expand...
I was pleasantly surprised as well, keep in mind, that block is rather small, it's like 2.75"x.75"x.75"....
And as you can see it rather rough, has some limitations as that it can't print anything thinner than 1.5mm so you have plus up the thickness of some parts of your design, then grind/cut it down after production, as well, smooth out the rough surface, it also can shrink a bit during the process, so not great for precision parts, it can have inclusions so not for critical structural strength either... ...if it had to go on a slide, I'd say no way, or be a part of the frame that needs to be somewhat fail safe, no way either, for a block that will have to hold a flashlight or laser, it works....

I'm happy with my project, of course I couldn't resist departing from a true clone to have a Red Dot Sight on it, I also elected for the latest tougher Cerakote that is darker than the originals desert sand... ....as well, the laser engraving of the "COLT***USMC" rollmark didn't come up as well as I hoped, not as deep as the original, so after sand blasting and cerakoting, its hardly visible....
Image

I had to hold it at the right angle in the light for it to come out, note I also had 3d printed a cap for the optics cut, yea it didn't come out to well, but at the same time, like most optics cap, once you put a Red Dot on it, its never used again. You can also see, the sand blasting for the Cerakote took away the edges of the blending of the block, it was perfectly blended before I prepped it for Cerakote...

I cut the rails to be really tight, I'm proud of that, but you don't get something for nothing, shoot in the cold, get it real dirty or rapid fire enough to heat it up, and I will have an occasional short stroke with the slide, you can feel the resistance, likely all from dimensionally changes from temperature or there being absolutely no room for some dirt/carbon getting on the rails... ...I'm shooting it with the rails almost dry in hopes of wearing it in...

And for others, the authentic picatinny rail block attached to a standard frame take a lot of work, more than what most people would consider reasonable for a 1911 build project... ...so bear that in mind, I made a pretty authentic looking Colt frame with the mil-spec Picatinny rail, but if saw how much work had to go into it to get it there, most people would say no thanks...

Moderators, again I went further afield, totally understand if you delete it...

I made a M45A1 clone, but at the same time, its not much of an option for most folks, the amount of work, some of it requiring some talent, and some of it being rather risky of screwing up an expensive frame or slide, puts it out of practical consideration for most folks.... ....and before I brag too much, like you would expect of a self-made clone, you could really pick it apart on the details, it is far from a perfect clone.... ....it was a neat project that was a lot of fun and very rewarding, and a pleasure to shoot... ...but I hold no allusions my clone could fool anyone into thinking its the real thing, especially if you compare them side by side...
 
#816 ·
I've created a new YouTube channel (MiMoSA Research) and published my first video on collecting the Colt M45A1. This first video is on the five attributes collectors should be looking for when evaluating an M45A1.

My intent with MiMoSA Research is to do in-depth, deep dive, educational videos on Military/Modern Small Arms. I would also like to do videos on current market conditions, auction listings that are possibly fraudulent (and how to spot those), and various other topics related to collecting.

Please share with anyone you think might benefit! Thanks to everyone in this group for sharing your knowledge throughout the years, and I hope you find this video helpful.

Here is the link to the video:


Let me know what you think!
 
#820 ·
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