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Why are guns so expensive?

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6.2K views 75 replies 54 participants last post by  Denis S  
#1 ·
You can get a cell-phone staffed with 21st century technology for free with a service contract. An MP player goes for $100. Plasma TV's are under $2000 nowadays. A desktop computer at Walmart can be had for $500 with a monitor and printer.

So then, why does is cost me and you $500 and upwards for a chunk of metal built using, for the most part, a 100-year old technology and less parts than go into a $10 toaster? :scratch:
 
#53 ·
They are pricey because of the type of metals that they are made with, the intricancy of the parts, the volume of them that are sold, and the labor involved to make them. How many $500 items that you mentioned will last a 100 years and still work fine only by keeping it clean and oiled. The gun is the only one.
 
#55 ·
Supply and demand + Uncle Sam

Misfit asked what it costs the government for an M9 and M16, I'll have to find the paperwork tomorrow but if I recall the cost for our M9's is around $500 and the M4 is around $600! Notice not much of a difference. The cost we would pay for an actual M4 is around $20,000. Colt doesn't need to worry about liability when selling a know product to Uncle Sam. Now I'll bet the cost of the SPR's and advanced weapons are a little higher:D
 
#56 ·
arnie said:
Do any of you who blame lawyers have any data to back it up?
Don't you think that limited retail distribution, limited quantities sold (compared to typical consumer goods) and expensive machining might be more likely causes?
Read page 12 of Rugers 2006 annual report.
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/PDF/Annual_Report_2006.pdf

Read page 11 of Rugers 2005 annual report:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/PDF/Annual_Report_2005.pdf

It's not lawyers it's the misuse of lawyers by the anti-gun groups hiring them.
 
#57 ·
A new guy chimes in

I'm newto the 1911 dialogue, this is my first response! :) I won't even be a new Kimber owner until Saturday. I labored over spending $1000 rather than $500 for what I felt to be better equipment. Why? Because I never sell my arms. I expect them to work and perform for decades, then pass them down to my son or daughter. Thank goodness great-grandad thought to leave me his 1895, my grand-father his '54 870 and my dad his '65 700 instead of their toasters!
 
#58 · (Edited)
arnie said:
Do any of you who blame lawyers have any data to back it up?
Don't you think that limited retail distribution, limited quantities sold (compared to typical consumer goods) and expensive machining might be more likely causes?

Arnie, it was intended as sarcastic humor, but with the suspicion that product liability costs (not all for the lawyers, but almost all caused by the lawers) was a significant chunk of total costs. And I was right.

First, are you a lawyer? I think we'd like to know that in your next response.

Secondly, if you are not a product liability or class-action tort lawyer, you're probably a great guy, I'm not blaming you personally. Some of my best friends are lawyers. 90% of lawyers give the other 10% a bad name ;) ! So please don't take this personally. Unless you are a product liability or class action lawyer, then feel free to take it as personally as you like.

Third, thanks for the link to the financial statements, Bluetooth.

Now, to set the stage. The recent law passed to protect manufacturers from frivolous lawsuit abuse (I forget the name at the moment -- protection of lawful commerce or something like it, I believe) was passed for a very good reason. A published tactic of the anti-gun left was to try to bankrupt gun manufacturers through specious tort litigation, and it was having a meaningful effect.

I won't go into the details here, but for a period of a decade or two there were no light airplanes manufactured in the United States for precisely this reason. I know at the time Piper aircraft went bankrupt, they estimated that roughly 1/3 of the total cost of producing their light aircraft was accounted for by product liability costs.

Great result for "the little guy", eh? Drive a viable industry completely out of the country so the little guy had to buy his light aircraft from foreign manufacturers at inflated prices. It's only after some protective legislation aimed at that industry that some US makers re-entered that market. But that's for some other forum. So, on to guns, using the Ruger 2006 annual report as research fodder. I'll leave it to others to generalize to the firearm industry as a whole.

For the non-business types here, income can come from many different sources, including sales of assets, settlements of legitimate lawsuits (yes there are some legitimate lawsuits ;) ), and other sources. To avoid the distorting effects these non-recurring and/or non-operating-business related things can have on the way one views the health of the company, they are normally reported as separate line items on the income statement. That way, a reader of the income statement will know the entire amount of income a business receives, but still be able to see trends in the profitability of the main line of business. According to Ruger's Income Statement, they had some income from asset sales in 2004 and 2006, and, in fact, operating income (product sales minus expenses, but before taxes) was negative in 2004. Reported income for that year was solely due to asset sales.

Product liability costs are included in the General and administrative line of Expenses. These include not just lawyers, but other court costs, the dollar amounts of settlements, product liability insurance premiums, etcetera. While some of this is normal and necessary in the absence of scum-sucking anti-gun tort lawyers, I think I won't get much of an argument when I posit that the majority of the product liability costs come from them and their activities. Mounting a defense by attacking this assumption on my part may work elsewhere, but be prepared to be laughed off of this forum if you go there.

So, where does that leave Ruger? I'll leave it to you folks to read the text of the report dealing with their litigation woes, but it's worth a few minutes. Here are the numbers. Because there is a lot of year-to-year variance, I've summed the figures for 2004, 2005 and 2006 and given the three-year total results.

I also want to focus on the forest, not the trees, so to avoid becoming too pedantic and complex (boring for the non-accounting types) I've left out a lot of detail from the income statement. Because a business lives on income, not sales, I'm going to focus on the income figures.

Total product liability expenses are included when calculating operating income, so to put these costs in perspective, I'm going to add them back to operating income and show you what income would have been without them, and to show the magnitude of these product liability costs on profitability.

Figures are three-year totals

Operating Income $ 8,098,000
Product liability costs (PLC) $ 8,217,000
Operating income before PLC $ 16,315,000 (added PLC back to operating income)
PLC as % of operating income before PLC 50.4%
Clearly, specious litigation is a serious drag on profitability. Just as clearly, the tactic of trying to bankrupt firearms makers through specious litigation might very well have succeeded in the absense of legislative protection. The Although there are many very large players, there are many, many smaller manufacturers in the firearms business. It is an incredibly competitive marketplace.

Had Congress not intervened the anti-gun cabal may have been successful in driving many manufacturers out of business. I think we'd agree that Ruger is a medium to large player. Their three-year total pre-tax income was 2.4% of sales. Their after-tax income was 1.5% of sales. There net income in 2006 of $ 4,823,000 divided by stockholder's equity of $ 87,326 results in a 5.5% net return on equity. Not a terrific business by any means. Tort lawyers could have easily killed it.

I rest my case.

John
 
#59 · (Edited)
It could be ALOT worse...

Guns are not exactly low priced, but let's all remember to say thank God we live in a nation where, in spite of the best efforts of the leftist/socialist antigun bigots and their soulless bottom feeding attorneys, we can still purchase and own them!!

I can't think of any other nation on earth where a lawful citizen can walk into a gun store, write a check and walk out the door with a gun in 15 minutes. I can do that in my state (Indiana). I can also carry a concealed firearm here. If you can't do those things in your state, have you ever considered moving to a gun friendly state? There are quite a few to choose from.

As far as gun prices, I'd say they are what they are due to inflation, attorneys and government meddling. 30 years ago, a new Colt Gold Cup 1911cost $340; now the same gun costs $1000 to $1100. Back then, a H&K P7M8 9mm was $500. Now they're $1500. Inflation probably accounts for about half of the price increase; the rest is compliments of attorneys and politicians, IMO.

Still, just the fact that you can buy a NEW .357 revolver for around $350, a .38 snubby for around $300, a basic 1911 for around $550, a Remington 870 12ga. for around $300, a Glock or Springfield XD for around $525 is nearly a miracle. You can't do that in Japan, Communist China, the UK, Canada or any European nation that I'm aware of.

There are basic "meat and potatoes" guns that will do anything you need to do as far as home defense and concealed carry that are still affordable for the working man and woman, that a lawful citizen can walk in to a gun store, buy and walk out.

Let's remember to be grateful for that, and let's all do our part to make sure it stays that way.

Yes, the really sweet guns - Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, Rock River, etc. cost alot of money. Like everything else, you get what you pay for. A Glock is like a Timex watch, a custom 1911 is like a Rolex.
 
#60 ·
The post above mine here is the best I have read. Thank God that we are discussing why guns can be so expensive and not why we can't buy them at all.

My feeling is that if I need a gun for protection, as listed above there are affordable options. But I buy guns (and never sell them) because I like the history and stories which will without a doubt follow that pistol throughout its life. They can be passed down to my son, or shared on a public internet forum with others who share in my love of firearms.

My son will have an extensive collection when I die, just like I have from when my father died. Each holds a special place in my heart and I am fortunate that a financial crisis hasn't come about yet which would force me to sell any of them. But it is a nice piece of mind to know you won't lose much money on these guns when you buy them, unlike any other hobby I can think of. It makes that $1500 on a Special Combat Colt seem reasonable. Even more so when I saw my son shoot it for the first time. Brought my dad back, if only for a moment....
 
#62 ·
You are certainly welcome!

The economic drag caused by specious litigation, and our tax code would make great topics for doctoral dissertations.

Changing the tort system and installing a flat tax would probably be as noticeable a boon to the economy as a meaningful tax cut. Of course it would put a lot of lawyers and accountants into cross-training programs.

But that's perhaps not a bad thing! ;)

John
 
#63 ·
They charge that much because they can! It takes a special breed to be in the gun manufacturer business with the media and liberals against them all the time.
The uncertainty of our gun rights in the future might be driving up the price also.

Guns are not expensive to make with the help of CNC machines and other tools. The profit margin on the custom 1911 must be very high. I don’t see that much additional work is performed on a Nighthawk vs. a Les Baer and yet they charge $1K more. Custom guns are hand fitted, not hand made. You wouldn’t want a handmade gun anyways.

The guy that unloads the cargos at the Port of Long Beach makes $120K a year. If he can make $60/hr, my gunsmith should do as well if not better.
I'm in the wrong career!

Here we go again with the gun rights debate after this Virginia Tech shooting! :rolleyes:
 
#64 · (Edited)
Bluetooth said:
Read page 12 of Rugers 2006 annual report.
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/PDF/Annual_Report_2006.pdf

Read page 11 of Rugers 2005 annual report:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Corporate/PDF/Annual_Report_2005.pdf

It's not lawyers it's the misuse of lawyers by the anti-gun groups hiring them.

If I read the reports right, Ruger spent an average of $2,176,000 each year in 2004-2006 on legal fees and settlements.

Ruger's financial report for 2006 can be found here:

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.aspx?Feed=BW&Date=20070305&ID=6571165&Symbol=RGR

Ruger's gun sales totaled $139,110,000 in 2006.

If you divide Ruger's legal costs by their gun sales revenue for 2006, it constitutes less than 2%. (It would be an even lower percentage of the retail cost of Ruger guns.) So, for a gun costing $500.00, retail, the cost attributed to "lawyers" would be under $10.00. That cost may be annoying, but it does not go far to explain the "high cost" of guns complained about in this thread.

Here is an analyst's viewpoint on Ruger's current situation:

http://msn.fool.com/investing/gener...6/sturm-rugers-inventory-storm.aspx?logvisit=y&source=eedmsnlnk0010001&bounce=y

The analyst mentions low sales growth, but does not mention litigation costs as being a financial concern.

If I have misread the reports, or made a mathematical error, please point it out to me. I am interested in knowing the truth, not in winning an argument.
 
#66 ·
Just Me said:
The toaster will last a year---the gun will last a lifetime.

The gun can save your life----what's your life worth??
My life is wholly in the hands of my God and my Savior, Jesus. It is worth to me more than any gun can cost so far I have to stay alive to raise my child. The price of a gun has NOTHING to do with my life. It's a tool and I'd appreciate if primitive consumer phychology tricks weren't used to jack up gun prices.
 
#67 ·
Given what happened yesterday in Virginia, expect gun prices to climb a lot higher. Rabid liberals, knee-jerk news media, and panic buyers are all good recipies for selling guns.
 
#68 ·
I don't necessarily find gun prices in general to be too expensive...but I do find interesting the fact that there is little difference in price between long arms and handguns and in some cases the latter of the two exceeds the former...I'm no expert and I've got no evidence but I've always just guessed that the price of handguns is used as a deterrent for obtaining easily concealable weapons as not everyone has a lot of money and might stir the question of why spend on a handgun when you can get a rifle/shotgun for the same price if not cheaper...
I wouldn't say it's an effective deterrent strategy because many potential criminals won't purchase on a legal market if they purchase at all, but I could see the general idea--plus since when does something have to be effective to be in place....look at all the gun control strategies that are around that are arguably ineffective. There just has to be a group of people that, together, perceive it as effective and bam there we have it, right or wrong.

one would think that rifles/shotguns would be more expensive... more mass, more material used...eh?
 
#69 · (Edited)
Found my buyers guide from 1992.
Just a few comparisons on what
changed over the last 15 years.
BTW... these are their listed prices.
(Guns & Ammo buyer's guide 1992,
Gun Guide 2007)

Item________________1992________2007
Ruger Mini-14_________$504________$750
Springfield M1A________$1060_______$1543
Mossberg 500_________$317-359____$316-574
Remington 1100_______$588-669____$799-1455
Springfield 1911A1_____$420________$660-1254
Sig P229_____________$780-850____$840-1195
Glock 17/19__________$511________$599-671
Walther PPK/S________$585________$543-665
 
#70 ·
Like a lot of the previous posts said - hand guns aren't that expensive ....... depending on where you live houses are expensive at at $ 200 a square foot or maybe $ 600 - $ 800 K ...... higher end cars, Lexus, etc are about $ 65,000 ...... decent bicycles cost about $4,000 ...... it's great news that you can get a well tuned Wilson Combat 1911 for about
$ 2,500 or a decent Browning shotgun for $ 2,500.
 
#71 · (Edited)
bdavis385 said:
. Oh, here's my favorite one, how many readers send their gun back for warranty work (shipping absorbed by the Co.) for every little nickel and dime thing that could and probably should know how to take care of themselves.
No disrespect or anything, but I have two points to make. First they should work right from the factory, if they did people would not have to send guns back.

Second, How is a young kid like myself supposed to know how to fix little nickel and dime things. It's not like we are tought how to smith in high school. Hell back in my day, class of 2002 (yeah, I know). We could get in to trouble just talking about guns in school.

Is it wrong for people to expect things to work when I get them home?
 
#72 ·
Honestly, this "work right from the factory" has been getting a lot of thread traffic here lately. To just from guns like the Springfield GI, guns built to military spec, pretty much do work "right from the factory" almost all the time.

If you get something that is a tackdriving pistol with competition accuracy, it may require tweaking and definitely a couple hundred rounds before it settles down. That should be expected, I think.

I would be willing to bet if there was an entire industry devoted to producing custom, hand-fitted Glocks that shot with competition accuracy, those would require as much tweaking as the high-end .45's.

We'll never know because controlled studies aren't done on topics like this, so all we get is anecdotal evidence and folks who simply post more and/or LOUDER. But I've been watching the Range reports section here pretty closely, and it amazes me the few times I see folks with issues with the Springer GI or MilSpec.

I'm not going to argue too loudly, because I can't prove anything either. But I have three very accurate .45's (one tight, one medium tight, one to MilSpec--not sloppy, but milspec) that shoot very accurately and run like a scalded cat. Does it make them "better" than a Glock? "Worse" than a Glock? Does it matter that two have been modified, and (I suspect) most Glocks are not? Nah. I just like 'em better.

Honestly, all the folks who gripe about .45's "needed to be tweaked" or who complain that they feel a gun shouldn't have to ever go back to the factory should buy a Glock and quite griping, IMNSHO. I ask you this question.

Why is the market for the 1911 style pistol so large after almost 100 years of using this pistol design? Why are guns like the Marines MEU-SOC pistol so popular with the troops? 1911's and Glock (types, not just that brand) are different. You pays your money and you takes your choices. Nobody forces anyone to buy a .45.

I'd stake my life on any of my three .45's right now, and if someone gave me a NIB Springfield GI, after shooting a few hundreds rounds through it (which I'd do with a Glock, too, by the way), I'd likely stake my life on 99/100 of them right from the factory.
 
#73 ·
Just for curiosity's sake, I just ran over to Gunsamerica.com.

Glock model 21 in .45 ACP, NIB, found one for $575

Springfield MilSpec (not the GI), NIB, found one for $550

These guns are comparably priced, and I think that's a fair comparison for reliability. Again, nobody will be able to prove this, ever, but I think it's highly likely these two models will exhibit about the same out of the box reliability (within a percentage point or two) over large numbers of guns once both have had 500 rounds through them.

You shouldn't get "nickeled and dimed to death" with the MilSpec, and you shouldn't have to be a gunsmith to run one.

YMMV. But I bet it won't. ;)

John
 
#74 ·
SwitchMonkey said:
No disrespect or anything, but I have two points to make. First they should work right from the factory, if they did people would not have to send guns back.

Second, How is a young kid like myself supposed to know how to fix little nickel and dime things. It's not like we are tought how to smith in high school. Hell back in my day, class of 2002 (yeah, I know). We could get in to trouble just talking about guns in school.

Is it wrong for people to expect things to work when I get them home?
What people are saying is that a lot of people are sending back guns that function 100% for very minor cosmetic things that they would expect to see on a $2500 ed Brown, yet are only paying $600 for a SA mil-spec, SW, colt 1991 etc. They aren't saying that it's for not working. Yes, they should work out of the box.

I own quite a few guns at the moment; BHP 9mm and a .40, cz 75B SA, Browning Buckmark .22, SW 617 .22lr, SW mod 19 .357, Sw1911, Marlin camp9, ruger 10/22, Fabarm H368 12 gauge. I have also traded or sold a few before I knew what I wanted or knew better. LOL.....I shoot at minimum 1k rounds a month. The only one that had to go back was the Fabarm/HK H368 shotgun after 2500 rounds because it needed a new mainspring (the old one was getting weak and not firing everytime.) Everything else has always functioned like it should for me. There's something to be said about that. How many new cars have you had that you haven't had to take in for warranty at least once.
 
#75 ·
I learned how to work on guns with my dad, he learned from his dad he was on the Army Rifle and Pistol team and an Armorer after he lost the lower half of a leg in WW2 and managed to stay in service. Not everyone gets a chance to draw from that kind of experience yet I am in no way qualified to do most of the work that goes into making/fixing a gun.

Also, guns are expensive, I agree with what was said earlier. A toaster costs 10 dollars precisely because you don't need it so fine tuned that it works perfectly. You want it to toast your bread and not light on fire, if it breaks...oh well buy a new one. A gun on the other hand if it should break or misfire you could end up in a world of hurt. A burnt piece of toast is no problem, a gun blowing up in your face? A major problem.

Think that these companies do research trying to make the steel or polymer better, trying to improve the components, they use expensive machines, and many have custom shops and some damn fine smiths working there. A guy at GE making a toaster doesn't need a world of experience to make the toaster, hence he gets paid less than say a guy making a handgun or rifle.

Then the company needs to make a profit, these are not charitable organizations. So I will gladly pay five hundred dollars or upwards for a firearm, without complaint you might say. My only complaint is that there are so many guns out there and I only have so much money to spend and only one pair of hands to shoot them with.