[Big Pete10]

All said both can be accurate. In the real world you'll find many more accurate .45 pistols than 9MM pistols. This is as God intended.

 

[Rifter]

They might get lucky and make a less than one inch hole at the short line, but not at the 50 yard distance. Heck, I have shot a very tight group in the X-ring at 25 yds shooting rapid fire....

The National Record for 50 yd slow fire was set by Bonnie Harmon way back in 1982. He is the only top master Bullseye shooter to shoot a perfect 200 score at 50 yd slowfire. That means, all 20 shots were either in the 10 and X ring or touching the 10 ring. The ten ring is 3.36" in diameter. Bonnie Harmon's record has stood for over 30+ years!

If someone told you a Bullseye shooter can shoot a less than one inch group at 50 yards with ten shots, then they are sadly misinformed.....

OK, I didn't think regular bullseye was more than 25 yds. Anyway, my point was that a Ransom rest is no indication of how well the gun shots except as a check for mechanical function. What counts is what it does when it is in someone's hands.

 

[richpetrone]

Guns and accuracy

my point was that a Ransom rest is no indication of how well the gun shots except as a check for mechanical function. What counts is what it does when it is in someone's hands.

A Ransom rest does indicate how accurate a pistol shoots with a given load. The Ransom rest is pretty much the standard by which all gunsmiths test their weapons for accuracy.

Two things are very important to achieve an accurate shot from a pistol:

1) mechanical accuracy and 2) practical accuracy

Mechanical accuracy is tested by shooting over sand bags, or better yet, a Ransom rest. The mechanical accuracy is only as good as the quality of the barrel and parts, the way they are fitted, and the quality of the ammunition used. For example, with an accurized .45, Winchester White box ammo may shoot to a 3" group at 50 yds, while 185 gr. Fed Match ammo may shoot sub two inch groups.

Practical accuracy of a gun is judged by how easy it is for someone to shoot the gun accurately. A highly accurized 1911 may shoot sub two inch groups from a rest, but if the trigger has an 8 pound pull, and is gritty with a lot of creep, the gun may not have good practical accuracy since the average shooter can not deliver proper trigger control with a horrible trigger pull, and may have a hard time shooting accurately. The weight, balance, the sight radius, type of sights, the trigger, and how comfortable the gun fits in a person's hand all contribute to practical accuracy.

I always strive to find the most accurate loads for my guns, so I experiment to find the optimal reload for each of my weapons. Also, I may have a mid range load and a self defense load that shoot to my expectations. Since I build my own guns from parts, I have been able to achieve both good mechanical and practical accuracy. The attached photo shows my last build, an STI 2011 hi-capacity pistol in .40 caliber, which will be used for concealed carry and also for USPSA Limited competition. The gun is both extremely accurate with my "major" caliber reloads, and the 3# trigger pull, with Bomar sights, makes it very good for practical accuracy as well. The photo shows the results from shooting over a sand bag rest at 25yds. I would expect this gun to shoot under 3" at 50 yards from a rest, which is not bad for an action shooting pistol....it was not intended to be used for precision shooting as in Bullseye competition.

 

[Rifter]

A Ransom rest does indicate how accurate a pistol shoots with a given load. The Ransom rest is pretty much the standard by which all gunsmiths test their weapons for accuracy.

Two things are very important to achieve an accurate shot from a pistol:

1) mechanical accuracy and 2) practical accuracy

Mechanical accuracy is tested by shooting over sand bags, or better yet, a Ransom rest. The mechanical accuracy is only as good as the quality of the barrel and parts, the way they are fitted, and the quality of the ammunition used. For example, with an accurized .45, Winchester White box ammo may shoot to a 3" group at 50 yds, while 185 gr. Fed Match ammo may shoot sub two inch groups.

Practical accuracy of a gun is judged by how easy it is for someone to shoot the gun accurately. A highly accurized 1911 may shoot sub two inch groups from a rest, but if the trigger has an 8 pound pull, and is gritty with a lot of creep, the gun may not have good practical accuracy since the average shooter can not deliver proper trigger control with a horrible trigger pull, and may have a hard time shooting accurately. The weight, balance, the sight radius, type of sights, the trigger, and how comfortable the gun fits in a person's hand all contribute to practical accuracy.

I always strive to find the most accurate loads for my guns, so I experiment to find the optimal reload for each of my weapons. Also, I may have a mid range load and a self defense load that shoot to my expectations. Since I build my own guns from parts, I have been able to achieve both good mechanical and practical accuracy. The attached photo shows my last build, an STI 2011 hi-capacity pistol in .40 caliber, which will be used for concealed carry and also for USPSA Limited competition. The gun is both extremely accurate with my "major" caliber reloads, and the 3# trigger pull, with Bomar sights, makes it very good for practical accuracy as well. The photo shows the results from shooting over a sand bag rest at 25yds. I would expect this gun to shoot under 3" at 50 yards from a rest, which is not bad for an action shooting pistol....it was not intended to be used for precision shooting as in Bullseye competition.

I have no disagreement with anything you said above. I've always believed that it is 90% shooter and 10% gun. Obviously, a well set up pistol helps almost any shooter up to a point (more so for an experienced shooter). But, I've seen good shooters pick up a gun that wasn't so good, and shoot it better than the guy who wasn't so good. Or another way to look at it, is a bad gun makes a poor shooter even worse.

 

[Entropic86]

But comparing .45 ACP to 9x19? I think the .45 has a small edge, though some people may actually be able to do better with the 9mm.

Based on what?

Size helps, the 155mm is more accurate at 1000 meters than either the 9x19 or .45 ACP. Of course, both handgun cartridges are extremely inaccurate at 1000 meters, aren't they?

Yes... because of better BC and velocity.

 

[grendelbane]

When I say, "I think", that means that I am stating my opinion. My opinion is based on my years of experience. Your opinion may be different from mine, and even your experiences may be different than mine. If I were to tell you what all I based my opinion on, I would be writing all night, (probably all month), and I have to get up early to work tomorrow.

My short answer is that the .45 is slightly larger than the 9. If manufacturing tolerances are held to .001", (I know they are tighter than that, just an example), then a .452" bullet, while still within spec, is 0.22% larger than its nominal diameter.

In the case of a 9mm, that same .001" inch translates to a 0.28% difference. Not a big thing, but the advantage is to the .45, of course.

The 9 operates at quite a bit higher pressure. This may make it more consistent, though .45 does seem to do all right.

At 25 yards, neither velocity or ballistic co-efficient are going to be very important.

The only way to settle the argument would be to have a thousand barrels of each, fit to some thing like a Contender. Then shoot millions of cartridges, (maybe need to buy some more barrels), of all types, including various handloads.

After all that, even if you prove the .45 is more accurate, some people will still be able to shoot better with a 9mm, because of the difference in recoil.

 

[Rooster-Cogburn]

Mechanical accuracy has little to do with caliber. Different calibers will shoot different diameter bullets, at different velocities, and trajectories. But neither are inherently more accurate than another by virtue of caliber. Both 9mm and .45 ACP are straight walled cartridges with round nosed or HP projectiles. Mechanical accuracy will depend more on bullet vs chamber vs barrel compatibility vs atmospheric conditions than on caliber/diameter/weight/velocity. My gut feeling is that typically 45 would be more accurate due to utilizing a heavier projectile that is less susceptible to atmospheric variables. However, 9mm is a higher velocity and lighter round, and may have better accuracy during good atmospheric conditions.

As others have said, accuracy more often has to do with the shooter than the gun. With the exception of shooting from a rest, mechanical accuracy isn't going to be the limiting factor.

If you can shoot good enough to outshoot your pistol without a rest, then you need to re-evaluate your ammo quality and compatibility with the barrel. If that doesn't work, the barrel might be worn out, or just a piece of junk to start with.

I'm sure bullseye requires great skill, but IMO Shooting 50 yards from a rest has about as much practical application for self defense as shooting skeet with your 12 GA. Most people I see at the range lack the fundamentals to shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with a rifle...Much less a pistol. I wouldn't even consider mechanical accuracy when selecting which caliber to buy or carry.

 

[richpetrone]

Straight walled pistol calibers

Both 9mm and .45 ACP are straight walled cartridges

This is not correct. The 9mm case is tapered. The .38 special and .357 mag, .38 super, .40, and .45 are all straight walled.

It has been established in the precision shooting of NRA Bullseye competition, the 9mm is capable of better accuracy than a .45. This has been proven using 9mm 1911 guns and Beretta 92 guns. Ask the gunsmiths that build precision Bullseye gun....send a PM to Jerry Keefer or Chuck Warner. They have had posts stating this on this forum, and I believe them!

 

[Rifter]

This is not correct. The 9mm case is tapered. The .38 special and .357 mag, .38 super, .40, and .45 are all straight walled.

It has been established in the precision shooting of NRA Bullseye competition, the 9mm is capable of better accuracy than a .45. This has been proven using 9mm 1911 guns and Beretta 92 guns. Ask the gunsmiths that build precision Bullseye gun....send a PM to Jerry Keefer or Chuck Warner. They have had posts stating this on this forum, and I believe them!

Well, that may be. But, I still think the .45 is easier to score with due to the larger diameter. Given two shooters of equal skill, the guy with the .45 isn't going to have to work as hard. If he's off a bit, the caliber will work for him, where the 9mm might be out of the ring.

 

[icas]

They are both accurate, good rounds

 

[Rooster-Cogburn]

This is not correct. The 9mm case is tapered. The .38 special and .357 mag, .38 super, .40, and .45 are all straight walled.

It has been established in the precision shooting of NRA Bullseye competition, the 9mm is capable of better accuracy than a .45. This has been proven using 9mm 1911 guns and Beretta 92 guns. Ask the gunsmiths that build precision Bullseye gun....send a PM to Jerry Keefer or Chuck Warner. They have had posts stating this on this forum, and I believe them!

Ok... Still though, accuracy depends on many variables. In the case of 9mm vs .45, I'd say that all the other variables are more important. The biggest variable being the shooter. And the fact remains that bullseye/rest shooting aside, mechanical accuracy of a pistol is rarely a limiting factor. OP stated 25 yards, and I'm going to assume for SD purposes, because the average person wants a firearm for SD with a max range of 25-30 yards. Mechanical accuracy will not be the limiting factor for these people, and is therefor a non factor in caliber selection. Most of us don't shoot bullseye, and don't care what is best for that, anymore than what pellet gun/caliber they are using in the Olympics.

 

[zenfly]

Wow! 25-30yds for defense ? I dare say it's more often 25-30 inches.. If you shoot someone 30yds away I hope you have a good lawyer..

But we're off subject and I just jumped to the end but I'll bet the consensus is too many variables..

Here's a thread about 9mm that covers some stuff.. there's a cool chart down in the middle w/test/group sizes etc with several guns..http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108414

 

[Rooster-Cogburn]

Wow! 25-30yds for defense ? I dare say it's more often 25-30 inches.. If you shoot someone 30yds away I hope you have a good lawyer..

But we're off subject and I just jumped to the end but I'll bet the consensus is too many variables..

Here's a thread about 9mm that covers some stuff.. there's a cool chart down in the middle w/test/group sizes etc with several guns..http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108414

You are probably right most of the time. However, it depends on a lot of things. It can and has happened. Parking lots, garages, malls, schools, movie theaters... If a crazed maniac is indiscriminately shooting at people, you might need to make a longer shot. There isn't always covered avenue of escape, as the people in Auorora will attest to. Cops will be there when they get there.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...2013/08/daniel-zimmerman/one-year-later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/

 

[richpetrone]

9mm vs. .45acp accuracy at 25 yds

accuracy depends on many variables. In the case of 9mm vs .45, I'd say that all the other variables are more important. The biggest variable being the shooter.

The original post asked which caliber is more accurate. It didn't ask anything about which caliber is easier to shoot accurately, nor did it mention anything about the practical accuracy of a gun.....the only question was which is more accurate at 25 yds....9mm or .45. The answer is the 9mm cartridge has more inherent accuracy than a .45 at 25 yds. with a properly built and accurized gun with a good load. It may not be a large difference in group size, but it will still shoot the smaller group.

A gun is either mechanically accurate or not......when gunsmiths test a gun for mechanical accuracy they take the human variable out of the equation by using a Ransom Rest.

A person that shoots any gun does not affect the inherent accuracy of the gun, all they do is show if they have the skill and ability to fire an accurate shot and shoot to the potential of the gun. If the OP asked about which caliber has more practical accuracy, meaning that it is easier to shoot accurately, I would still say the 9mm is easier for most shooters due to the lower recoil impulse.

 

[Denver1911]

Per the OP:

"With all things (except shooter experience, firearm make and model, barrel twist rate, gun weight, sights installed, self defense situation vs bullseye competition, powder used, bullet construction, trigger type and pull weight, and a bunch other stuff) being equal is the 9mm or .45acp more accurate?"

I'm sure someone will correct me if I have miqsuoted the original question.

 

[Rooster-Cogburn]

The original post asked which caliber is more accurate...

A gun is either mechanically accurate or not......when gunsmiths test a gun for mechanical accuracy they take the human variable out of the equation by using a Ransom Rest.

And as we've previously pointed out, this is a completely pointless, and useless fact... Unless you are shooting bullseye competition.

 

[Boge]

And as we've previously pointed out, this is a completely pointless, and useless fact... Unless you are shooting bullseye competition.

As has been pointed out to you READ the OP's original post AGAIN as it's obvious you missed the meaning. People are supplying him with info.


richpetrone, you're right as Harry Pope said that to find out what a gun will do you have to eliminate the man from the equation, hence muzzle clamps in his time for rifles and Ransom Rests in ours for handguns.

However, my point is that if everything is equal with two guns built exactly alike, but one chambered in .45 ACP & the other in 9mm, that the main differences we would see would be ammo tolerances over a period of time in a perfect scenario. Other variables obviously enter into the equation as well, e.g., temp & relative humidity. Based on a two gun sample one could not safely conclude that one ctg. is more inherently accurate than the other. There are just too many variables. It would take tens of thousands of rounds in laboratory conditions from a large sample of guns to convince me otherwise.

Personally, I think they are both superbly accurate if fed their favorite handloads. I do agree with your on the fact that many discount the 9mm as an accurate ctg. based usually on prejudice.

 

[richpetrone]

Original post

Is there any data to support which of these two calibers has the potential of being more accurate at 25 yards?

I have tried to reply with informed information about the 9mm and the .45acp when it comes to shooting them in equally accurized guns.

As mentioned previously, the 9mm has a slight edge when it comes to accuracy when two well built and accurized pistols are compared with the best quality ammo. Here are two quotes from highly competent pistolsmiths that make their living building accurate 9mm and .45 guns. Both are quoted from responses on this forum from a thread entitled "Bullseye Performance":

Quoted from Joe Chambers response: I've built a couple of .45's that will shoot 1" or slightly less for 10 shots out of my Ransom Rest. They are RARE. On average I'm getting 1.35" or a tad better and I use either ASYM or my own hand loads when testing .45's. With the 9mm and .38super now, that is a different story as those guns have shown, with the proper loads, to shoot under 1" consistently. But still, I have not found anyone that can capitalize on that potential by shooting one handed.

Quoted from Jerry Keefer:
Most of the military teams, and a number of high end bullseye builders have and use barrel testers.. Barrel testers are a robust device that receives the barrel and secures it in a solid, very rigid, immobile state. The tester is mounted to a massive steel/concrete structure. This allows for a very precise evaluation of the performance a particular barrel is capable of. It is rare, very, very rare, as in almost impossible, to find a .45 barrel that will shoot into an inch or less group. 9mm is a different animal. Contrary to popular myth, all barrels are not created equal.. Generally, when installed in the 1911 frame/slide, by a skilled smith, the group will expand by 1/4 inch + . 1-1/2 inch guns do exist, but not in the numbers commonly believed..and, not all ammo is capable of one inch groups..Jerry

I highly respect the answers from these top gunsmiths.....the bottom line is, the 9mm is capable of better accuracy in a 1911 and even a Beretta 92, since the military teams use both weapons for competitive shooting. If this question had been asked 25 years ago, the answer would have been different and in favor of the .45acp, since the 9mm accuracy greatly improved with better barrel design.....as did the .38 super. The newer barrels allow the 9mm and the .38 super to headspace on the case mouth, and not the small rim. At one time, police competition, often called PPC, used highly accurate .38 special revolvers with heavy barrels. Once the 9mm barrels in a 1911 platform began showing equal or greater accuracy, the sport has evolved to using highly accurized 1911 9mm handguns. The same is true with NRA Biachi competition.....the majority of the shooters are using accurized 1911 9mm or .38 super handguns. Both of the above sports require shooting at 50 yds.

My answers to the original post were only for comparisons of accuracy....not inferring accuracy for self defense, practical accuracy, etc.... I have supplied the data, it is your choice to believe the data or not!

 

[Rifter]

Let's get back to the original premise here. The OP said 25 yds, not 50 yds. He did NOT specify what type of shooting. While current advances in building accurate pistols have brought the 9mm out of the backroom, there is no challenging the fact that the .45 was king of the hill for decades, and with good reason. It is still right up there even today, despite advances with 9mm and .38 Super.

In terms of practical use, it is still king of the hill. The average shooter (not guys like us who have been at the game for a long time, have multiple guns, etc.) keeps the .45 in first place in terms of sales and demand. The combination of factors that make that a reality haven't changed much in the last 50, maybe even 75 years. As far as pistols for combat/self defense, I still think nothing beats the .45.

One last thing: the person who took me to task when I related how my boss tested the guns he built changed the parameters of the test and then jumped on me for telling tales. The tests were at 25 yds, not 50, and I watched him do it many, many times. He was a master smith, on the Navy pistol team, and one of their armorers. He used that expertise when building pistols for others for competition in his later years. No puffery, just facts.

 

[richpetrone]

1911 .45

In terms of practical use, it is still king of the hill.

For the civilian market, I believe the 1911 .45 has a very high share of users/owners. Not necessarily so with law enforcement and the military forces around the world. Many law enforcement and military "special divisions" still prefer the 1911 .45, so often times SWAT and Special Forces teams use this platform.

The original premise (the original post) did ask about 25 yd accuracy and did not ask if this comparison would be made by someone shooting the gun....all the OP wanted to know is which caliber, 9mm or .45 has greater potential accuracy. However, if a gun is accurate at 50 yds, it will be even more accurate at 25 yds., so if a gun can shoot a one inch 5 shot group at 50 yds, the 25 yard group should be half the size.

I have shot the 1911 .45 for many years, and even started shooting USPSA in the early days when shooters still used the .45!

Trust me, I am a big fan of the .45, but when it comes to the inherent accuracy of the 9mm vs. the .45, the 9mm has eclipsed the .45 ever so slightly. A 9mm that shoots a one inch group at 50 yds compared to a good .45 that groups 1.5 inches is not significant, but it still has proven to be more accurate. Any gun that shoots great at 50 yds will shoot groups roughly half the same size at 25 yds., so even when testing both cartridges at 25 yds., the 9mm will edge out the .45 in terms of accuracy potential. The .22 rimfire in a quality target pistol with good ammo is even more accurate than a 9mm or .45!