The reasons I carry a 1911 is because of it's excellent trigger and the thin design of a single stack makes it nicer to carry. Especially IWB. I do have double stack pistols. For me the advantage of the added capacity of the double stacks falls short of my preference for the trigger and ease of carry. There are good reasons for both.

 

Personal preference...

Also, personal preference, if I need more than one or two shots, I'm in serious trouble... But reloading is quick and easy too.

Jon.

 

What do you think?

I think I am glad I was able to move past an attachment to 1911s and explore other options.

 

I've explored other options since the late 1960s - I haven't found anything I shoot even 75% as well as a 1911 in the tests that mean something to me (I should note the test that really mean something to me also calculate effectiveness as an equal part of the score and I also do not use the targets with a huge A-zone like the IDPA and IPSC targets).

But everyone has to figure out his own "yardstick" and test the guns themselves - perhaps someday I will find something better. I do still shoot a lot of different guns (not as well as I once did ) and I do often carry a BUG of a different format (often a DA revolver), but often those are because I am retired and am frequently in the "wild" (well OK maybe "mild").

This is not to say, everyone is going to find he shoots the 1911 better than others, by any means.

I really mean that "work out your own salvation" thing - which is why I've resisted standardization at every LE agency I've taught firearms for. I could not really have that much effect on the Military - but at least they adopted a "carry whatever you want" when they started allowing concealed carry on post, even on duty in uniform (not sure that policy is still in effect - I retired in 2014 from that gig).

Just Ramblin'

Riposte

 

I have not been in a self defense situation since leaving the military a few decades ago. I have, however, seen a lot of YouTube videos of people with tattoo's around their biceps shooting in slow motion with perfectly manicured alpha male beards. And from this real world experience I have come to conclude that you need a magazine capacity of at least 317 rounds to be able to handle a self defense situation. This is very different from my experience in the military where the most important thing was situational awareness and the knowledge of the best place to get my butt out of harms way before I even thought of my magazine capacity. In diving for cover I find the narrow profile of a 1911 less likely to impale me as I dive for cover and rugged design more likely to work once I engage my weapon. Umm, I mean platform.

 

Even a six-shot revolver will suffice in the vast majority of situations. Those who choose a large-capacity firearm are simply worried about being an outlier.

 

Pretty much this. I'll preface this by stating that I've not personally had to draw my gun in defense, but I do spend time studying video from those who have. It's of particular interest when done in a civilian self defense context, since that's most applicable to my situation.

So all the talk about magazine capacity is untested, theoretical. What do you think?

I think that enough people have been shot with handguns since the first hand cannon was created in 1288 to say that it's been thoroughly tested.

FBI statistics from police involved shootings shows the average defensive shooting is over in 4 rounds. Naturally that means some take more, but it also means some take less. And unfortunately outliers do exist. And if you don't like FBI statistics for whatever reason, look up Active Self Protection on YouTube. John Correia spends plenty of time going over video of all manner of self defense scenarios that have played out in the real world.

To that end I will point out that I've seen a video or 2 where someone has run out of ammo and things gone south for them from there. To date I have not once seen someone prevail in a gun fight and wish they had brought less ammunition.

I'll still carry a 1911 now & then. But I do so with full knowledge of the weapon's limitations.

 

...So all the talk about magazine capacity is untested, theoretical. What do you think?

I think you're bored.

 

I think you're right!!! Lol

 

I'm most comfortable in my home with a 1911. When I venture out into the unknown (camping with buddies, etc.), I'll grab a Glock 19...just the way I am.

 

I agree with this statement, I sure like my 1911 cocked and locked next to my chair at hame but when out and about I like a high capacity Glock. The only exception is in very cold weather when I carry my 1911 loaded with 230 grain HST +P.

 

I remember a conversation from long ago between two gun owners. One carried a Glock 19 and two spare loaded +2 magazines, for a total of 50 rounds. The second guy asked him what he expected to do with all of that firepower. He answered "Hopefully, nothing!".

Do you need 50 rounds for defense? Probably not. But if you don't mind packing it all, at least you can say running out of ammo in a gunfight is the last thing you have to worry about.

 

Well, the prosecutor will have you reciting exactly where every single one of those 50 rds went, and why. You had better hope they are all in the perpetrator 🤨 .

 

I did for over 15 years, a Sig Sauer C3 1911. Recently changed to a Wilson Combat EDC X9 Experior, which is still more 1911 than 2011.
Two magazines of 37 shots instead of 3 magazines with 22 shots.

I wouldn't feel under gunned carrying my Sig Sauer C3 or any other 1911 I own ( well maybe the GSG 22lr )

I was involved in a SD shooting 12-13 years ago.

 

20 round magazines are great for people that plan on missing a lot

 

They're even better for people who plan on hitting precisely what they aim at 20 times.

 

I chose the best of both worlds with a double stack 1911 A2 for 14+1 in 45 and 3 extra mags. 2 mags are 13 rounds , the one in the pistol is a 14 round and the one that came with it is a 10 round for a total of 51 rounds. I only have about 100 rounds through it so far so it is for night stand use until I put more rounds through it to break it in and ensure that it is reliable. So far I have had no problems with it or the mags. I may use it for winter carry this year if I continue to have good luck with it. It is a solid weapon and will probably outlast me if I take good care of it which I plan to do. At the present time I carry a micro 9mm with 4 13 round mags for a total of 53 rounds which I hope that I never need to use. It is a polymer pistol that is a lot lighter than the 45 and a lot easier to conceal. I hope to never use them for self defense but if I need to I don't want to get in a situation where I have to say that I wish I had brought another mag. I would probably never have to use all the rounds in the 1st mag but with the possibility of running into someone who is jacked up on drugs and looking for his next fix I would rather carry more than I think I will need. Druggies have been known to keep going after they were dead on their feet but their brains hadn't given up yet. Like I said before I hope that I never have to use them but I hope for the best and try to prepare for the worst !

 

Our local riff-raff isn't ambitious enough to need more than a magazine's worth, usually just the sight of someone not intimidated by them is enough for them to go elsewhere. Situational awareness is more important that what pistol you carry.
That said, I've usually got a Commander and two reloads handy. If I'm in the truck, it's got an M&P 9mm and an FPC Carbine in it.

Never needed it, and hope I never do.

 

I've worked in and around LE for over 50 years (some of those years I was without a badge but I I trained LE all 50+ ) and I worked with the Military for 14 years (10 of them full time) - I have all sorts of handguns, I've carried several as BUGs, I've even carried revolvers when policy did not allow anything else.

For me, the 1911 is the best option (not saying it has to be for you) but, as far as capacity goes, I'd have to have a 24 shot 9mm to do a job equal to a 6 shot .45 (I have shot a lot of stuff that bleeds). Even with capacity, I don't see how I'm going to live long enough in a serious short range lethal encounter to fire all those rounds.

OTOH, the things serious trainers say about the "typical" lethal force civilian encounter (cops are civilians - they don't operate under the UCMJ) is over in 3 shots, at 3 yards in 3 seconds - true enough, there are exceptions - I call those "close encounters of the worst kind".

I'm all for everyone carrying whatever they want and I do feel for agencies which require a certain gun - not everyone is built the same, we each need to work out our own salvation!

Riposte

 

I've worked in and around LE for over 50 years (some of those years I was without a badge but I I trained LE all 50+ ) and I worked with the Military for 14 years (10 of them full time) - I have all sorts of handguns, I've carried several as BUGs, I've even carried revolvers when policy did not allow anything else.

For me, the 1911 is the best option (not saying it has to be for you) but, as far as capacity goes, I'd have to have a 24 shot 9mm to do a job equal to a 6 shot .45 (I have shot a lot of stuff that bleeds). Even with capacity, I don't see how I'm going to live long enough in a serious short range lethal encounter to fire all those rounds.

OTOH, the things serious trainers say about the "typical" lethal force civilian encounter (cops are civilians - they don't operate under the UCMJ) is over in 3 shots, at 3 yards in 3 seconds - true enough, there are exceptions - I call those "close encounters of the worst kind".

I'm all for everyone carrying whatever they want and I do feel for agencies which require a certain gun - not everyone is built the same, we each need to work out our own salvation!

Riposte

I am no expert about the statistics. If you live in a large city and plan to get into a gun fight with thugs in gangs, then one might require many rounds. I suspect that large carry quantity is an excuse to spray and pray. OTOH, if you are anticipating being accosted, robbed, or just in the wrong place, maybe a few shots are needed. My approach is to remain calm and fire only a few placed rounds (I'm not telling anyone what they should do.). I prefer 9mm for economy of practice. My carry rounds are Lehigh Defense specialty rounds, which have extraordinary would capability. If my shots are not good enough, well, then, I lose. Otherwise, I should not need more than my 9mm Sig Ultra Compact can carry. Just my viewpoint based on reading, experience, and thought.

Your mileage may vary.

Mike
Florida

 

First of all, to each his own, there is no "right" answer...

BUT, any statistical/logical approach would conclude that 8+1 with a more potent round vs 9 is a great SD weapon as long as you can shoot it well. Moreover, anyone serious about using any firearm for SD makes the best out of its potential by practicing the "manual of arms" specific to that weapon. This includes combat/emergency reloads needed in (extremely-rare) one-off cases for SD. It is good to have this skill even if you gun has 100 rounds given that magazine failures can happen.

The ability to wield-well a good 1911 with 45, far outweighs the ability to have more rounds of a lesser round for "civilian" SD in my opinion. History has shown this...I make no claim as to what gun/caliber is best for a cop, they have a much different use of force requirement and a different mission to society than I have, hence I don't study their needs in detail.

 

I just found this from an article written by Lucky Gunner in 2016. Here is a paragraph from it.

In the overwhelming majority of the incidents where an armed civilian fires a shot in self-defense, probably 70 to 90% of them are able to resolve the situation within 3 or 4 rounds, and usually closer to one or two rounds. Every once in awhile, the good guy fires more like 5 to 8 rounds. And in some very rare instances, we see round counts in the low double digits. And if you look more closely into those instances with the higher round counts, in many cases, the suspect was actually disabled after the first couple of shots, but that wasn’t immediately obvious to the good guy, so they kept firing until the gun was empty or it was clear there was no more threat.

Here is the article.

How Much Ammo Capacity Is Enough? - Lucky Gunner Lounge

How much ammo to carry is a controversial issue. In this post, we take a look at something you might consider when weighing the issue.

www.luckygunner.com

 

My real preference for high capacity when out in public is now that I am older and due to spine issues I can no longer run, neither can my wife. With my Glocks I see no disadvantage to carrying large capacity guns, but when it comes to a .45acp the 1911 is tops. In my opinion the 1911 is unbeatable in the trigger and recoil control.

 

I carried single stack 45 or 40sw handguns for most of my 37 years of concealed carry but about 12 years ago I added a M&P 4.25 full size 40sw the carry mix . I'm a 68 year old retired and well used up home builder . I'm slower than I use to be and have less range of movement and notice even mag swaps were slowing way down !

We live in a very low crime rural county with one town and it a great place to raise your children . I'm fine carrying my lw commander in 45 here with one extra 10 round mags as back . But when going to the big city or on a road trip I carry a M&P 4.25 40sw with a thumb safety and a apex trigger kit that gives me a 3.5lb trigger pull that's closer to what I know so well with my 45. I'll carry one extended 20 round back up mag most times couple extra in the car .

 

Every time this topic comes up I am reminded of an interview with Daryl Gates when he was Chief of LAPD and they had just authorized the Beretta 92. One of the first incidents was a female officer who missed a subject 16 times and reporters asked Gates if he though the 92 was a good idea.

His answer was "Sure, she would have had to reload twice to miss that guy 16 times with a revolver!" - I wish I could have seen that interview rather than just read about it - I'd say he was dripping sarcasm

I recall someone asking Bruce Nelson what he thought about large capacity pistol in LE work - he said something to the effect "They are fine if a fella plans on missing a lot".

I'm not against having more ammo on board (unless you fall out of the boat or catch fire!) but I'm not going to trade effectiveness for capacity (you don't have to in all cases - I do have a couple of 18 shot 10mm pistols - but I don't typically carry them).

At the risk of being redundant, carry what you want and have confience in !

Riposte

 

I choose to carry a high capacity 1911 (2011). I have many decades of law enforcement behind me and unfortunately have experienced a number of officer involved shootings. None where the same, other than shots were fired.

I primarily carry a Staccato P with a twenty round magazine. I never fired more than 20 rounds in any of my encounters and do not know anyone personally who has.

I have learned that there are very few "rules" in a gunfight. They are not fair and most are extremely rapid events.

As has been said no one ever, including me, wished they had brought less ammo. One of the FBI agents in the famous Miami shootout with the bank robbers (Ed Moralies) told me that he felt a person should carry a pistol that they can shoot well and as much ammo as they can carry.

My words of advice is that no matter what you carry, practice with it as much as you can.

 

I carry a 5 shot 44 special revolver, 1911 45, or a Shield 9mm most of the time. One at a time. I just see in todays world a few more possibilities where I'd feel better with more capacity. 95% of the time 5,9, 11 rounds would be enough. But in those situations with large groups of people swarming a car or similar situations more could be better. I find myself carrying my CZ with standard mags more often then I used to.

 

I'm a À chacun ses goûts kinda guy. You want to carry a hi cap poly gun with a half a dozen loaded mags then go ahead. You want to carry a revolver, I have no problem with it. You want to carry a 1911 then be my guest. Ya don't carry at all, that's fine by me, it's none of my business. I'm that way concerning calibers also, carry what caliber you want, no skin off of my nose.

 

Six shot Smith & Wesson K-Frame revolvers and seven shot Colt 1911 .45s are still repeating firearms, same as they always were. I can't be concerned with higher capacity side arms so will continue to tote what I have always toted. Familiarity counts for something. I'm not interested with becoming familiar with a high capacity handgun, even while several roost in the safe here.

We have a generation that is distinctly frightened of the reload.

 

I have drawn a sidearm twice with full consideration that I might have to use it. Both times it had the desired effect of diffusing the situation without a single shot being fired. Just sayin.

 

High cap 9mm when I want to shoot a lot, low cap .45 when I don’t.

 

I'll stick with my Lightweight Commander and 8rds of .45 ACP. Never though much of 'spray & pray' which seems to be the rule for high-cap weapons. Local (Philly) news has daily reports of innocent bystanders getting hit by errant bullets from the spray & pray thugs. From the elderly to kids, just sitting on their porch, in their home or walking down the street. Even the police shootouts seem to involve 'mag dumps' (covering fire?) with very few hits. Fortunately, I've practiced instinct or 'point' shooting with my 1911 pistols since I learned about it from gun magazines back in the 70s.

Video: Suspects open fire on group seconds after school bus drives through Philly neighborhood (fox29.com)

 

I've shot probably 200 matches with my 1911. I'm not afraid of a reload. A person isn't magically a better shooter depending on the capacity of the gun they're shooting. You can either shoot or you can't. If you want to rely on statistics with the small chance of using your carry gun you can justify not carrying a gun at all.