[Harold Hill]

As a certified pistol safety guy…. Let’s start with, every gun should be treated at all times as a loaded firearm…. Do not point the arm at anything you don't wish to destroy…. Keep you damn finger off the trigger! It’s really not rocket science, but any of the first two would have avoided the tragedy. Then there is the fact that ammunition should never be anywhere near a weapon that is being cleaned.

Rant over and prayers to those that are touched by this tragic event.

 

[SC shooter]

Why don't people shoot the sofa I'd like to read of a ND where just the coffee table was damaged, not a "friend" or pregnant wife, or cheating girlfriend.

How about a refrigerator?

I have to ask, is it possible that the person who had the accident with the firearm was a person who, up to that moment, knew all of the safety rules and ethics pertaining to firearms and had faithfully followed them all of his life up until that one unguarded moment?

Yes, it is possible.


I have just such a story. I am quite ashamed of what I did and some of my shooting buddies made sure to rub it in, but it was a lesson well learned.

I had bought a used Franchi SPA 12 back in the early 80s it did not come with the owner's manual and there was no internet like we have today plus I didn't get my first computer until a few years later.

The SPA12 is a shotgun that can fire semi auto or pump and has all the bells and whistles one being a magazine cut off button. I was not new to shotguns or other firearms, but I had never had anything that had this magazine cut off. I was alone and for that I am grateful even though I know not to point guns at others.

I was sitting in the house with the shotgun unloaded just checking it out, working the action and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber just trying to get familiar with the way it worked. I had already fired it earlier and was just sitting there basically playing with it.

I put a couple of shells in it and was checking this magazine cut off button. You press it and the shell will not feed into the chamber when you work the action. I pulled the trigger because I knew the chamber was empty and just a click like I expected.

This is the part where you need to read the owner's manual FIRST and if you don't have an owner's manual you better be damn careful with what you are doing.

I worked the action again still thinking the magazine cutoff was working but apparently once you pull the trigger it releases. I pulled the trigger and boom I had a hole through the kitchen wall through one side of my refrigerator and out the back side of it.

I was stupid and I felt stupid. I can't blame it on that magazine cutoff button because it was my ignorance of how it worked and my fault for not checking that chamber to make sure it was empty.

I had shot 1000s of rounds through firearms before that happened and even more in the 40 years since and that makes no difference. I knew the rules, but I had a ND because I screwed up.

 

[Bogeyman]

Oh... but that has happened but its not newsworthy, so you will never read about it.

But why point and pull the trigger... ever at anything or anyone when cleaning? That is not necessary and that is what needs to be taught to every gun owner. Clearing a gun is not rocket science. You don't have to murder your sofa or coffee table. Drop the magazine, rack the slide, eject the round in the chamber (if one is in there) and visually check the chamber, then release the slide and then disassemble, even if it involves pulling the trigger like on a Glock and several other types. The only time in my opinion you need to fire the gun into something like a bullet trap is if you have a jammed round, and that round or slide just doesn't want to budge... but that is not something you want to do in your kitchen or living room.

Now I have one, maybe two firearms where you cannot rack the slide with the magazine removed. Its my Seecamp LW380. The magazine forms part of the support mechanism and without a magazine, that slide will not budge... and if you force it. It may damage the gun. So in order to completely unload the Seecamp, you need to do that in one of two ways. 1) You rack the slide 7 times... or more to eject all the rounds, then check the chamber to make sure it is clear, then drop the magazine. The other way, is to drop the magazine, and manually remove all the rounds by hand, then reinsert the empty magazine into the gun, and rack the slide to get the one in the pipe out. But the Seecamp is the only pistol that I am aware that needs special attention for clearing.

Buy an extra mag so you can just pull the loaded one, insert the empty, and rack out the chambered round. Just leave the extra mag with your cleaning gear so it doesn't "accidentally" get loaded.

 

[Ranger4]

You are making the kind of assumptions you chided others about.

You seem to be envisioning "shot himself in one hand" as some sort of stigmata-style hole through the palm. Suppose the wound to the "hand" is a graze across the heel of the hand.

Going back to your 1911 example it is easy to shoot your own hand, but unlikely to occur during cleaning or reasonable handling because there is no reason to press the trigger at any point in disassembly.

On the other hand, the vast majority of police firearms are striker-fired pistols and many require pressing the trigger while removing the slide. VERY EASY to have your non-dominant hand in a position where a round would graze the heel of your hand while removing the slide.

If our young officer was actually about to clean his pistol, it seems likely that he removed the magazine but failed to remove the round from the chamber. This sort of mistake is common enough that various jurisdictions keep trying to demand the "magazine safety" feature for all guns. This could happen from distraction, carelessness, etc.

As a California police officer, this shooter certainly had formal training with his duty firearm and any backup that he was approved to carry. That formal training is conducted under circumstances that make failures to clear the gun nearly impossible but also unimportant. Mechanical training is conducted separately from marksmanship training. He would have been trained to clear the pistol properly, but that training is conducted in a safe environment with no live ammunition involved. This is considered essential for safety because it ensures that the kind of mistake that apparently happened won't cause any problem in the classroom. Clearing his gun at a firing range should be observed by the range officer or RSO, but that doesn't happen 100% and I've never heard of a training range where disassembling the gun is part of the supervised range exercise.

And of course in the official police press release, which is from the City of Salinas, not where he worked 40 miles away, they pointed out that it was a "personal weapon." You said he was about to clean his pistol, is there a link that said it was a pistol? I have read many but none yet that confirmed that this "personal weapon" was a pistol. We just assume that it was. Maybe it was an AR pistol? Of maybe a long gun? We are all assuming. My point is having been trained and investigated many incidents, at some point, whatever type of gun it was, will have to be held and pointed in such a way that the trigger was activated while one hand is in front of the barrel and the gun was pointed at the person now described as a by-stander. Of course there could have been a ricocheted off of the stereo in the corner or the fridge,, but when we re-create a theory of the crime or accident, all of those things must line up. I use the dowel rod example because it makes it easier for people to visualize. If you have a couple of dowel rods, try it with your own handgun, if not use a couple of arrows. Now, try it with a long gun. Not a lot of easy ways to line up the shot and the trigger being pulled so that in the instant the bullet hits one hand and the torso of another. You gotta try it to understand.

In the real world we use trajectory kits and dummies. Like this.

These yellow ones are protrusion rods, I have some that are about 22 caliber and 16 foot long when together. And we use lasers once we have a confirmed angle of fire.

And these little guys below are laser trajectory centering cones. You stick them in a hole in a wall or object, then shine the laser through to find the possible angles the bullet might take. There is a lot more to it, the investigator will conduct a blood splatter analysis to make sure the officers story lines up with who was where when the shot happened. And of course they have already swabbed the hands of both parties for gun powder residue. The just want to know for sure if the by=stander was across the room or 2 feet away, powder residue and splatter will tell them that. Why does it matter? Because, the real story may not be the one we are hearing. If everything lines up, cased closed.

People shoot themselves every day, just happens. And they shoot other people accidentally every day. But shooting both yourself and another person is not common. It is less common for a police officer to do it. Every shooting deserves a simple basic investigation. We just do not have much information at all. That is all I ma saying, lots of possibilities but until everything lines up, we do not know the actual facts.

 

[Ernest T]

But that is the thing about statistics, the greater the number of events, the closer you get to the chances of the bad thing happening.
Cops that carry daily all day long are counting up to that 1 in 10,000 risk, compared to the guy that keeps his firearms in a safe and takes them to the range twice a year, how quickly is he ticking off the 10,000 time to have the 1 accident?

I've argued there is a such a thing as "less than negligent" discharge. We had those sand barrels outside the chow hall in Iraq, where the duty and MP personnel that were carrying with a chambered round were to clear their weapons and then dry fire into the barrel before entering the chow hall. One guy messed up and actually discharged into the sand barrel, his CO disciplined him for it, while I'm like, why do even have the barrels there if you're going to punish people when they do their job.

Before and after I clean my weapon, after double checking a round is not chambered I dry fire pointed at the dirt. And I have never shot someone or myself while cleaning a weapon. One day I might actual discharge a weapon into the ground before or after cleaning it, and you can certainly argue that was a negligent discharge, at the same time my record of not shooting someone or myself cleaning a weapon will still be intact, which is better than more than a few people's record, isn't it.

In the mid 70s I was waiting in line to clear an M16 into a barrel when a guy 2 or 3 people in front of me discharged his weapon into the barrel. Startled the bejesus out of 30 people coming and going in front of the building, including me. He wasn’t disciplined per se, but he did get some addition training on firearm clearing procedures.

 

[Ernest T]

As a certified pistol safety guy…. Let’s start with, every gun should be treated at all times as a loaded firearm…. Do not point the arm at anything you don't wish to destroy…. Keep you damn finger off the trigger! It’s really not rocket science, but any of the first two would have avoided the tragedy. Then there is the fact that ammunition should never be anywhere near a weapon that is being cleaned.

Rant over and prayers to those that are touched by this tragic event.

That’s never going to happen. It’s just human nature and you see it with all activities, not just firearms.

 

[Che]

I cleaned three (3) Glocks the other day and nobody was harmed.

But gun accidents happen; it falls under, when bad things happen to good people. So, it is, what it is.

 

[Che]

In the mid 70s I was waiting in line to clear an M16 into a barrel when a guy 2 or 3 people in front of me discharged his weapon into the barrel. Startled the bejesus out of 30 people coming and going in front of the building, including me. He wasn’t disciplined per se, but he did get some addition training on firearm clearing procedures.

When I was in the Army Guard we had a Private who had a Negligent Discharge of his M16 in “full automatic” mode inside our APC. Fortunately it was blanks. He got ‘educated’.

 

[RickAnderson]

....But gun accidents happen; it falls under, when bad things happen to good people. So, it is, what it is.

Ok, a talked about statistics and tried to make the point, people are going to die in accidents, that is just reality of life and any activity we participate in....
But I started out talking about how you are successful in life, you have to minimize those risks to be successful...
So I feel like I have say, gun accidents are avoidable and we should strive to avoid them....

We strive to reduce auto accidents and we should do that, but people are gong to die in auto accidents despite that......
But we don't argue we should ban cars, do we?

When I was in the Army Guard we had a Private who had a Negligent Discharge of his M16 in “full automatic” mode inside our APC. Fortunately it was blanks. He got ‘educated’.

That was one thing about training I remember, blanks brought on a lot of complacency. But then again, look at Hollywood, they manage to take complacency far enough, they are killing people with Blanks....

 

[Twofinger]

I’d just recently came within a trigger pull of an AD in my home. I brought my unloaded 1911 back from the range in the pistol bag as I always do. I had done some work on it and was doing extensive function checks afterwards both at the range with live ammo and more at home.
It was dark in the room. I had six magazines I had been using at the range in the pistol bag. Of course, they were all empty of ammo.
Grabbed one, shoved into the gun. Cycled the slide and put finger on the trigger to drop the hammer so I can then put in half cock (my SOP to signify full mag, empty chamber on 1911.)
Except the slide didn’t lock back.
Complacency instantly gone.

Finger immediately off trigger, pull back the slide and see brass of live round in the chamber!!
I cleared it and then recalled as I was cleaning empty brass off the range floor and found a live round that I absentmindedly fed into the magazine for safekeeping. (I was focused on getting reloadable brass.) Out of six mags used, I managed to grab the only one with a live round.
I am humbled.

 

[Sarge1998]

I've argued there is a such a thing as "less than negligent" discharge. We had those sand barrels outside the chow hall in Iraq, where the duty and MP personnel that were carrying with a chambered round were to clear their weapons and then dry fire into the barrel before entering the chow hall. One guy messed up and actually discharged into the sand barrel, his CO disciplined him for it, while I'm like, why do even have the barrels there if you're going to punish people when they do their job.

I agree...the soldier should be brought to the CO where he should be asked to explain what he did wrong. The punishment should have been held in abeyance for say 6 months. Important to stress safety and maintain discipline without making users reluctant to use safety procedures.

 

[macmanjim]

Reckon it's just another instance of wanton 'gun violence', since these articles seem to typically be worded in a way that frames the calamity as 'the gun behaving badly' while only casually hinting at the possibility that there might have been an honest to goodness idiot behind the trigger behaving recklessly.

California police officer shoots self in hand, kills another man while cleaning personal gun, cops say

A California police officer was cleaning his gun when it went off, shooting himself in the hand and killing a man, police said.

www.foxnews.com

22 years old, inexperienced and did the wrong thing. Always point the gun in a safe direction when handling. Maybe he took gun training from Alec Baldwin.

 

[lonerider1013]

Then there is the fact that ammunition should never be anywhere near a weapon that is being cleaned.

That’s never going to happen. It’s just human nature and you see it with all activities, not just firearms.

largely true, see lack of care with everything from cars to guns, and yet... I keep the ammo upstairs and clean the guns at the workbench downstairs.
Works so far. And I am hardly superhuman or otherwise exceptional lol.

Make something a habit and it goes a long way toward avoiding circumstance.

 

[macmanjim]

I wanna make some reference to Alex Baldwin….

I did

 

[Gator22]

Why don't people shoot the sofa, coffee table or just the floor or wall when cleaning guns??? It sure seems like a LOT of convenient acidental deaths occur when cleaning loaded guns. I'd like to read of a ND where just the coffee table was damaged, not a "friend" or pregnant wife, or cheating girlfriend.

I'm sure it happens a lot but it is not a news splash so we hardly hear about such things.

 

[Walt3]

Why don't people shoot the sofa, coffee table or just the floor or wall when cleaning guns??? It sure seems like a LOT of convenient acidental deaths occur when cleaning loaded guns. I'd like to read of a ND where just the coffee table was damaged, not a "friend" or pregnant wife, or cheating girlfriend.

They do. Probably a thousand times a year, but it’s not news. Says the guy who shot at God once, through his bedroom ceiling.

 

[n4aof]

I was stupid and I felt stupid. I can't blame it on that magazine cutoff button because it was my ignorance of how it worked and my fault for not checking that chamber to make sure it was empty.
I had shot 1000s of rounds through firearms before that happened and even more in the 40 years since and that makes no difference. I knew the rules, but I had a ND because I screwed up.

Today any 'normal' person would be suing the gun manufacturer, the ammo manufacturer, the FFL, and probably the refrigerator manufacturer -- and they would stand a good chance of winning.

 

[RickAnderson]

I agree...the soldier should be brought to the CO where he should be asked to explain what he did wrong. The punishment should have been held in abeyance for say 6 months. Important to stress safety and maintain discipline without making users reluctant to use safety procedures.

That was one thing we did discuss, perhaps the guy had a long line of warnings and SMH incidents, at some point you run out of, warnings and/or "no one was hurt, it can happen to anyone" events, and becomes clear you're a guy that is an accident waiting to happen if you don't get a good slap to wake you up.

 

[RickAnderson]

Why don't people shoot the sofa, coffee table or just the floor or wall when cleaning guns??? It sure seems like a LOT of convenient acidental deaths occur when cleaning loaded guns. I'd like to read of a ND where just the coffee table was damaged, not a "friend" or pregnant wife, or cheating girlfriend.

People shoot inanimate objects all the time by accident, that doesn't make the news cause there is no drama or dramatic lose, nor does it support the anti-gun crowds agenda.

Only if you're famous Celebrity shooting your TV because you're P.O. does it make the news.

I mentioned that before, in response to people reading into the emerging details like they are really suspicious, those additional details can easily be explained; the most suspicious thing is the claim he shot someone while cleaning the weapon. Cause that is the typical explanation of someone committing a crime.

I'm sure the cops are investigating with the idea that it might have been a crime and the only survivor is lying to cover up the crime. They will likely have him repeat his story several times and look at all the evidence, see if his story changes or if any of the evidence indicates something other than he claims, if it all lines up, then they'll conclude he's telling the truth and it was an accident.

 

[Loco1911]

...I worked the action again still thinking the magazine cutoff was working but apparently once you pull the trigger it releases. I pulled the trigger and boom I had a hole through the kitchen wall through one side of my refrigerator and out the back side of it...

Not to be insensitive. Shooting fridges has always been funny to me, don't know why.