Mr. Hanlon candidly commented on his view of the sworn officer that is just looking for a paycheck as opposed to those that take their job seriously.
The fact that he doesn't carry a weapon in his retirement surprises me.

 

The fact that anybody would consider Ayoob's hobbycop job in a small village with no crime as "many years in law enforcement" surprises me.

 

Massad F. Ayoob (born July 20, 1948) is an internationally known firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques and civilian self-defense to both law enforcement officers and private citizens in numerous venues since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal Force Institute (LFI) in Concord, New Hampshire from 1981 to 2009, and he now directs the Massad Ayoob Group (MAG).[1] Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He has served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and holds the rank of Captain in the Grantham, New Hampshire police department.[2]

Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense- and firearms-related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which airs on the Sportsman Channel in the United States.

While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney; he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.[3][4] His published work was cited by the Violence Policy Center in their amicus curiae brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court in the District of Columbia v. Heller case, and he himself filed a declaration in another amicus brief in this case.[5] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner (former president of NACDL), "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[4]

Ayoob remains an internationally prominent law enforcement officer training instructor. Since 1987, he has served as chairman of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers (ASLET).[dated info] He also serves on the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators’ and Trainers’ Association, and is an instructor at the National Law Enforcement Training Center.[5]

Ayoob is of Arab descent.[6][7]

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Ayoob has his followers and also many detractors, citing his limited LE work which he uses to his business betterment.

I've always thought him a very proficient shooter, who makes a living in the gun community. No LAPD, etc. A good shot with some business acumen. Period.

Personally, I can think of better trainers, with more street savvy that I would prefer to train with. IMO.

 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Ayoob has his followers and also many detractors, citing his limited le work which he uses to his business betterment.

I've always thought him a very proficient shooter, who makes a living in the gun community. No lapd, etc. A good shot with some business acumen. Period.

Personally, i can think of better trainers, with more street savvy that i would prefer to train with. Imo.

+1

 

I was a cop in Dade County when that shooting occurred. I left the Suniland South shopping center 10 minutes before the shooting started. It was on SW 82 ave just south of SW 120 street in Suniland, which is now known as Pinecrest. It was probably the worst scene I have ever been to in my 20 years of law enforcement in Dade County. There were alot of questions that came up after this incident regarding the tactics used. The case has been closely scrutinized so that incident does not get repeated in the future, and alot of training now is based on what happened that day. It was very tragic that 2 great men lost their lives, but they put up a hell of a fight and did the best they could. It's a miracle not more agents or any civilians were killed. Those agents were outgunned from the start. I went to the agents funeral in North Miami, and it was one of the saddest days in Miami history and in my police career. RIP guys, we will not forget you.

 

I was a cop in Dade County when that shooting occurred....

Thank God that Hanlon and his colleagues had officers like you willing to enter the fray, that responded that day Bill, thanks for your service...based on Mr. Hanlon's account, Miami Dade had some top notch officers.


One aspect of that shooting that I wasn't aware of is how these scumbags obtained their weapons, by going to informal shooting areas and attacking other citizens for their guns. Seeing others pull up to a shooting area in the desert, always raises my alert level, after listening to this story...even more so now, I reckon.


Walter has a long running disrespect for Ayoob, and he has been pretty vocal about it, other than that he is a good guy.

 

Wow, I know I can be a little obnockshus; but putting down Ayoob!?! If i was in a firefight, I'd be in Ayoob's friggn back-pocket! Why take a chance.:bawling:

 

I appreciate Mas for being a visionary of sorts, he understood the need of the armed citizen long before many of his colleagues ever considered the notion, and his book "In the gravest extreme" caused many unarmed citizens to re-think their pre-conceived opinions about the dangerous world that we live in.
He is diligent in reconstructing what took place in violent encounters, whether it be sworn officers or the armed citizen, and in his "Ayoob files" reports, he shares with the reader the lessons to be learned with the luxury of hindsight. He get's down to the nitty gritty by detailing the loads that are used and a pretty descriptive post-mortem on what damage that load produced, and goes on to give advice on what might have been done differently without being offensive to the true victim. Over the years he has made me re-think my approach to my own personal security, which as helped me to put my self in a more advantageous position should I find myself in the gravest extreme.

He has been a tireless advocate for the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms, and if a man is known "by the company that he keeps" he is in pretty good shape. Hanlon, Cirillo, Stasch, and too many others to mention have no problem speaking candidly about events that have left them in some pretty hairy circumstances. I have no doubt that these guys would sniff out a rat in a heartbeat, if that person had ulterior motives or was looking for self glorification in what others had done.


I don't reverentially look at him as a gun god or anything of the sort, but I understand how his cocky self-assuredness rubs others the wrong way...I have roamed the earth long enough to know that it isn't borne of arrogance, but from one that exhibits a large measure of self confidence.

I think in the long run, history will be kind to the legacy of Mas Ayoob...friend of the armed citizen.

 

Worded perfectly!

+1. T

i appreciate mas for being a visionary of sorts, he understood the need of the armed citizen long before many of his colleagues ever considered the notion, and his book "in the gravest extreme" caused many unarmed citizens to re-think their pre-conceived opinions about the dangerous world that we live in.
He is diligent in reconstructing what took place in violent encounters, whether it be sworn officers or the armed citizen, and in his "ayoob files" reports, he shares with the reader the lessons to be learned with the luxury of hindsight. He get's down to the nitty gritty by detailing the loads that are used and a pretty descriptive post-mortem on what damage that load produced, and goes on to sgive advice on what might have been done differently without being offensive to the true victim. Over the years he has made me re-think my approach to my own personal security, which as helped me to put my self in a more advantageous position should i find myself in the gravest extreme.

He has been a tireless advocate for the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms, and if a man is known "by the company that he keeps" he is in pretty good shape. Hanlon, cirillo, stasch, and too many others to mention have no problem speaking candidly about events that have left them in some pretty hairy circumstances. I have no doubt that these guys would sniff out a rat in a heartbeat, if that person had ulterior motives or was looking for self glorification in what others had done.


I don't reverentially look at him as a gun god or anything of the sort, but i understand how his cocky self-assuredness rubs others the wrong way...i have roamed the earth long enough to know that it isn't borne of arrogance, but from one that exhibits a large measure of self confidence.

I think in the long run, history will be kind to the legacy of mas ayoob...friend of the armed citizen.

 

concerning Miami, my impression is that the agents were not outgunned so much as out-fought. Platt used tactics of fire and movement to kill two good men, and a combat mindset to remain in the fight and continue it even after recieving wounds that would have proven fatal. He was an evil man, and he hurt good and decent people, but failing to acknowledge things about bad men that they do better than the good guys is pretty dumb.
The agents are of course to be applauded for ther actions, and so are all law enforcement who do battle with such barbarians as those two. Miami to me though is not a lesson about firepower, so much as a tactical one.

Concerning Ayoob, I wager he is truly an expert at what he does, and while I am sure i disagree with some of his thoughts, that could be said of anyone. I respect him a good amount as a firearms trainer, but I don't think that first comment was very disrespectful, just a reminder that what he knows has less to do with time behind a badge and more to do with time behind a gun, and behind a desk researching and writing about them.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again;

Miami happened because people had a "head in the clouds mentality." Longarms in the trunk, no vest being worn, and various other "clues" leads me to suspect that the Agents involved were too busy having J. Edgar Hoover dreams and thought nothing could happen to them.

The Agents were outfought, but they were outmanuvered mentally long before that day even started. The sad thing was, the F.B.I., instead of really looking at what they did wrong, seeked to place blame on the 9mm round. They found their scapegoat and have ridden it to glory. I got news for you folks, it wasn't the round that failed, it was the Agents and their tactics.

Their head wasn't in the game. Admirably, when the fecal matter hit the rotating thingie, they still performed honorably however.

Biker

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

I certainly don't doubt what you are saying is probably right on the mark, I have witnessed the CYA attitude by manager in virtually every industry I can think of, when you consider that law enforcement agencies add the governmental bureaucracy to it, that only piles it on deeper.
The people that are responsible for training and issuing weapons are the ones that should be able to foresee potential problems...what is the old saying, "we are always fighting the last war"?
It was pretty ridiculous what took place in the Hollywood shootout, it seemed that some of the lessons that could have been learned from Miami...weren't.

 

Mas Ayoob

Have read Mr Ayoob's books, articles and commentary over the years.
Watched a number of his videos and have learned much from him.
Very intelligent, articulate, and experienced individual in the LE & shooter
community. He has my utmost respect and appreciation for what he has
done and contributed.... esp for those that have protected themselves and
found themselves in trouble in the courtroom defending their actions.

 

Ayoob has been around a long time. I remember him back in 1978 or so. Back then it was him and Cooper and Chapman.

Now we got dozens of experts and everybody has their own "flavor of the month". After 30+ years in law enforcement I see all the cycles. I really do not understand why we reinvent the wheel.

I can already predict who the next "guru of shootists" will be. Stay tuned

Stay safe, Che

 

Ayoob has been around a long time. I remember him back in 1978 or so. Back then it was him and Cooper and Chapman.

Back then, he was a young/new gunmag writer who needed to make his mark - thus the "Ayoob Wedge" and similar theories. The standard-bearers were Cooper, Chapman, Skelton, and Bill Jordan. Let's not forget Keith when it comes to shooting (instead of law enforcement), and McGivern was still wowing folks. Ayoob and Chuck Adams (who only wrote about archery) were the new guys; but they had a challenging position, they were not young enough to be the new generation, they were coming up on the cusp between the old salts and the new whizz-bangs, and they had to try harder to be different. That's how I think of Ayoob - "different". I don't doubt that he can outshoot me, but that doesn't make him a guru.

I don't trash him, but I don't elevate him either.

 

One thing I would like to point out, there are indeed many dozens of other training courses out there, many of them with highly skilled and experienced shooters such as Mr. Vickers, the folks from the Valhalla group, etc.

Mas Ayoob and Larry Vickers are perhaps the two names I know of that are probably my favorites when it comes to training and when they speak, I listen. Why? Simple, Both of these men are "been there, done that" professionals. Mas spent a long time on the street as a police officer. Larry, well, Larry went to much darker and harder places and came back.

We can argue about who teaches the best pistol or rifle handling techniques and tactics. We can argue about who we like, because everyone has a favorite. But if you listen closely to what these men teach, it's stuff taught from experience having actually DONE the hard thing and having to live with it and move on. It is NOT experience gleaned by years of playing tactical trunk monkey with no real experience on the street.

Now, many of the best trainers in the country are men who have been Police or Military, and have good experience and good perspectives on things. They can all teach, and all of them have their own views on what works best from their own experience.

The smart man, the smart shooter, understands this and doesn't compare training instructors beyond their backgrounds to vet their qualifications (there are many schools out there that don't know jack, too), but instead seeks to avail themselves of ALL training they can possibly acquire and then learns what works best for him or her.

For example, I am NOT a fan of the A-frame shooting technique, nor am I fan of the techniques necessarily put out by the Valhalla guys on handling a pistol. I have other methods i prefer. But, they teach sound tactics and are worth listening to.

When it comes down to it, be smart and listen to what is said by all instructors and learn to incorporate new ideas.

As to the poster who said "things change"...I respectfully disagree in regards to Mas Ayoob. Real Life experience doesn't change, and doesn't expire. It is valuable regardless.

 

...

As to the poster who said "things change"...I respectfully disagree in regards to Mas Ayoob. Real Life experience doesn't change, and doesn't expire. It is valuable regardless.

In case you address me, I stand by my claim: things change, that is the only fact of life. We become old, our thinking changes - experiences affect us - even Massad Ayoob's.

In every post of mine I've defended Mr. Ayoob and his contribution to the gun community.

 

Define real world experience

What "real life experience" does Ayoob have?

Ask him about his best felony collar.

Ask him how many holidays he missed with his family because he was working a sector car.

We already know he has never seen the elephant.

He was a competitive shooter against targets that never fired back.

He dissects and criticizes the actions of MEN who have been in gunfights and prevailed. What qualifies him to do so when he has never fired a shot in anger?

He is the most wanna-be trial attorney ever to put pen to paper. Yet he's never been to law school. Definitely the go-to guy for legal advice.

What he is is the owner of a gun school. He is also a stunningly successful self-promoter.

I rarely agree with WalterGC on anything but he absolutely hit the nail on the head in this thread. Ayoob is, as Walter said, a HOBBYCOP pure and simple.

 

What "real life experience" does Ayoob have?

Ask him about his best felony collar.

Ask him how many holidays he missed with his family because he was working a sector car.

We already know he has never seen the elephant.

He was a competitive shooter against targets that never fired back.

He dissects and criticizes the actions of MEN who have been in gunfights and prevailed. What qualifies him to do so when he has never fired a shot in anger?

He is the most wanna-be trial attorney ever to put pen to paper. Yet he's never been to law school. Definitely the go-to guy for legal advice.

What he is is the owner of a gun school. He is also a stunningly successful self-promoter.

I rarely agree with WalterGC on anything but he absolutely hit the nail on the head in this thread. Ayoob is, as Walter said, a HOBBYCOP pure and simple.

He was actually a police officer. From the wikipedia article on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas_ayoob

Massad F. Ayoob (born July 20, 1948) is an internationally known firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques and civilian self-defense to both law enforcement officers and private citizens in numerous venues since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal Force Institute (LFI) in Concord, New Hampshire from 1981 to 2009, and he now directs the Massad Ayoob Group (MAG).[1] Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He has served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and holds the rank of Captain in the Grantham, New Hampshire police department.[2]

Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense- and firearms-related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which airs on the Sportsman Channel in the United States.

While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney; he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.[3][4] His published work was cited by the Violence Policy Center in their amicus curiae brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court in the District of Columbia v. Heller case, and he himself filed a declaration in another amicus brief in this case.[5] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner (former president of NACDL), "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[4]

Ayoob remains an internationally prominent law enforcement officer training instructor. Since 1987, he has served as chairman of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers (ASLET).[dated info] He also serves on the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators’ and Trainers’ Association, and is an instructor at the National Law Enforcement Training Center.[5]

 

1986 FBI Miami shootout

There is an excellent book by W. French Anderson, M.D., titled "Forensic Analysis of the April, 11, 1986 FBI Firefight."

It's available from Paladin Press.

 

Analysis was wrong.

Ayoob's version of the shootout was "interesting". However if you read the forensic analysis with autopsy photos and crime scene photos, read the agent's reports (they are on the FBI's website as a freedom-of-information disclosure) and if you watch the FBI's training video re-creation of the shootout, you'll see that Ayoobs conclusions are not reliable. Maybe fun reading to sell a lot of magazines, but not strictly accurate. Dr. French's forensic analysis is available to the general public these days, and a good read.

I distinguish between the FBI re-creation of the shootout and the made-for-TV movie starring Ronny Cox as SA Ben Grogan. The FBI film is for training agents and well done.

 

I watched a movie about this, 'In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders'. They showed Matix and Platt robbing and killing people who were target practicing in remote areas.

Also showed an agent managing to use a shotgun one-handed after being injured.

Some scenes would lead one to believe the agents were under-gunned. I have no idea how realistic the movie was.

 

I've seen both the movie and FBI Film on the events and it almost looks like the movie version of the shootout was pattern after the FBI Film. I'll see if I can't find the FBI Film on the internet and post a link.

 

Unfortunately two Miami police officers were killed today in a shootout. I'm curious what the lessons learned will be out of this?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/20/marshals-shot-miami-suspects-killed-scene

 

It WON'T be the lesson Paul Howe (among others) has been saying for years. (Don't push the fight into someone elses castle when lives are NOT on the line.)
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/Push_or_Hold_8July09.pdf

Keep kicking criminals doors in, and you'll get shot at. Does this surprise anyone?

 

I'll stick up for Massad Ayoob as well. I have immensely enjoyed the books of his that I've read. He covers the subject matter very well, over a broad array of material. His writing style is easy to read without insulting your intelligence, sprinkled with bits of humor here and there. While probably never a world-class shooter, he has been well proven as a respectable shooter in a variety of competitions.

 

All of us are going to get slower and worsen as we age - doesn't matter to me, what matters is the guy's knowledge.

I've seen my own fair share of gunfights and it doesn't matter to me that he hasn't been in one himself; I'd love to be able to afford to train under him. One thing I do know - nobody but nobody was writing about the aftermath of civilian self-defense shootings before him - and that to me is like gold.

 

I would qualify Ayoob as more of a scientist, than anything else. He "studies" situations that have already transpired, and analyses them. Then he offers his opinion. Gee, a lot like a monday morning Q-back. His real life experience that he has "personally' gone thru, is limited. Shrug, he shoots a lot of contests with targets that don't shoot back. Does this invalidate his opinions? no. LIke everything we do in LE, we, each of us, need to study, draw our own conclusions, and work out what's best for us. We can learn thru debate, but debating someone's qualifications isn't the direction we need to be taking this.

 

I'm inclined to agree.

 

I think Cooper qualifies as Battle Hardened, as does Chuck Taylor, and I think Scotty Reitz. A few others. I think more than two or three successful gunfights qualifies you for that moniker.

Ayoobs fights?

Not that it means much. Plenty of great instructors who's shooting has all been on the range. I think Ayoob has some good stuff, and an inflated opinion of him is no worse than an inflated opinion of anyone else. There's no perfect system, and no perfect instructor, its like religion, glean what useful things you can and leave the rest.

 

Fundamentally, everyone will either agree or disagree with the man. Fundamentally, people will disagree and agree with EVERYONE out there, no matter WHO it is. You can get the baddest-ass operator out of Operational Detachment Delta, SEAL Team 6, etc. etc.; and even then, you'll get people that aren't impressed.

Guess that's the way of the internet...