[IPSCGuy]

Last month, one local USPSA course of fire had a spinning wheel with five plates attached magnetically, plus about a dozen normal targets. Clearly that might be applicable to a battle with two attacking Navy SEAL teams & an octopus. Or maybe 41 attacking drones. I say 41 because that's when I ran out of ammo.

I expect it will be a Classifier soon.

You will not get any justification from me as to why the Texas star is an approved target. For one, as a minimum the plates and the arms have to be numbered/marked so that the plate goes back onto the same arm every time. That is the minimum needed to even "try/attempt" to get the same shooting challenge for each competitor. Since the behavior of the target changes dependiing on which plate is engaged first, what is the position of that plate compared to its position on another shooter, where the plate is hit and with what PF/bullet weight/bullet design/bullet material changes the behavior of the plate coming off the arm and therefore the target arrays movement.

Since USPSA approved it, I just learned how best to shoot it and live with it albeit is does irratate me evertime I see one in a match.

The faster you hit the plates the better since less movement. With one arm up, I shoot it first, second plate is the arm moving up after 1st shot, 3rd is the opposite side arm. If done quickly, the remaing two are left rocking slowly at the bottom. If two arms up, hit the top two quickly (I shoot the one that is highest first, third arm is on the rise, leaving two at the bottom. I've seen GMs shoot the star so fast the plates hardly move. 😮

 

[Kent Dorfman]

40 and 45 being major and 9 being minor dates back to when Limited became a thing and Modified was still a thing in the mid 90s. And for a short while, Limited was called Tactical and Production version 1.0 was called Carry or something like it.

 

[waktasz]

You will not get any justification from me as to why the Texas star is an approved target. For one, as a minimum the plates and the arms have to be numbered/marked so that the plate goes back onto the same arm every time. That is the minimum needed to even "try/attempt" to get the same shooting challenge for each competitor. Since the behavior of the target changes dependiing on which plate is engaged first, what is the position of that plate compared to its position on another shooter, where the plate is hit and with what PF/bullet weight/bullet design/bullet material changes the behavior of the plate coming off the arm and therefore the target arrays movement.

Since USPSA approved it, I just learned how best to shoot it and live with it albeit is does irratate me evertime I see one in a match.

The faster you hit the plates the better since less movement. With one arm up, I shoot it first, second plate is the arm moving up after 1st shot, 3rd is the opposite side arm. If done quickly, the remaing two are left rocking slowly at the bottom. If two arms up, hit the top two quickly (I shoot the one that is highest first, third arm is on the rise, leaving two at the bottom. I've seen GMs shoot the star so fast the plates hardly move. 😮

You generally won't see them in Level 2 and up matches, but I think they are a fun target and are pretty consistent in their presentation. The main problem with them is plates that fall off without getting hit, that's a reshoot and can delay the match

easy peasy

 

[waktasz]

 

[Kosh75287]

40 magazines hold less than 38 Super or 9mm.

Evidently not, Mr. Freeman.

The most prevelent are 2011 style platforms. In those pistols magazine capacity for .40 S&W varies from around 21-22 or maybe 23 rounds.

MY .38 Super holds 17+1.
As I said, it's gonna be right interesting...

 

[YVK]

Evidently not, Mr. Freeman.


MY .38 Super holds 17+1.
As I said, it's gonna be right interesting...

One of guys you quoted is wrong. When you take two straight wall cartridges and one is 10% larger in diameter than another, I will go with the guy who says that you can stuff a smaller number of larger cartridges in any given mag.

140 mm mags usually hold 19 rounds of .40 and 22-23 rounds of 9 mm. 38S is same diameter as 9, it is just longer. Read manufacturer's description below

MBX Extreme

The Next Generation Race Ready Competition Magazines & Performance Parts

mbxextreme.com

 

[Kent Dorfman]

Evidently not, Mr. Freeman.


MY .38 Super holds 17+1.
As I said, it's gonna be right interesting...

Looks like you have it all figured out.

Good luck to you.

 

[waktasz]

You absolutely cannot get 23 rounds in a 140mm .40 mag. I won't say 22 is impossible with some magical follower setup, but I've never seen it.
I can start 21+1 and most of the people who see me do that want to know how

If your 38 super holds 17 you're either not trying or just doing it wrong

 

[Joe Btfsplk]

You will not get any justification from me as to why the Texas star is an approved target. For one, as a minimum the plates and the arms have to be numbered/marked so that the plate goes back onto the same arm every time. That is the minimum needed to even "try/attempt" to get the same shooting challenge for each competitor. Since the behavior of the target changes dependiing on which plate is engaged first, what is the position of that plate compared to its position on another shooter, where the plate is hit and with what PF/bullet weight/bullet design/bullet material changes the behavior of the plate coming off the arm and therefore the target arrays movement.

Since USPSA approved it, I just learned how best to shoot it and live with it albeit is does irritate me every time I see one in a match.

The faster you hit the plates the better since less movement. With one arm up, I shoot it first, second plate is the arm moving up after 1st shot, 3rd is the opposite side arm. If done quickly, the remaing two are left rocking slowly at the bottom. If two arms up, hit the top two quickly (I shoot the one that is highest first, third arm is on the rise, leaving two at the bottom. I've seen GMs shoot the star so fast the plates hardly move. 😮

So, what does the new USPSA shooter think of this? If they are into competition, they probably love it. However, if they are into the "practical" of "Practical Shooting" like I am, I think they come away thinking the sport has gone awry. I tried IDPA for a year, & decided they had too many rules about target engagement that you had to be aware of as you shot. That's the beauty of IPSC; it's free form. That's why I stay with USPSA.

 

[waktasz]

Most of them think wow that's hard, but when they see someone good shoot it they are impressed and see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Almost no one I see come to these matches throws a fit about stages that aren't "real life" or "practical"

 

[Kosh75287]

If your 38 super holds 17 you're either not trying or just doing it wrong.

I certainly MUST be. I'd HOPED to shoot a mass-produced pistol chambered for a round that is SAFELY capable of major power in production-class events, which allows one 9mm caliber to be counted as major, while the round that feeds MY pistol is prohibited from major scoring.

Looks like you have it all figured out.
Good luck to you.

Far from it, Mr. Freeman, and I think you know that. What I DO believe I've figured is that USPSA rules won't always be right, but the USPSA rules will always be the rules.

So be it...

 

[IPSCGuy]

Evidently not, Mr. Freeman.


MY .38 Super holds 17+1.
As I said, it's gonna be right interesting...

Then get 140 mm mags

 

[IPSCGuy]

You absolutely cannot get 23 rounds in a 140mm .40 mag. I won't say 22 is impossible with some magical follower setup, but I've never seen it.
I can start 21+1 and most of the people who see me do that want to know how

If your 38 super holds 17 you're either not trying or just doing it wrong

Just checked my Limited mags since I haven't shot Limited in sometime. 2 mags (RHT) hold 22 rounds and are easily used for reloads and seat without having to attempt to drive magazine through the top of the receiver. 3 mags (STI) all hold 20 and are reloadable. Two of the three will hold 21 but are difficult at best to reload reliably so never load to 21 if used for a reloads. I will start a stage with a 21 rnd mag for 21+1. The remainder (STI) are 19 rnds. Never changed followers or basepads to get increase round count on these mags. None of the tubes are "turned" for capacity increase they are stock. All fit my USPSA mag guage without any issues. I've checked the mags on multiple USPSA guages and never an issue. The three that hold 20/21 the only change from 19s are the follower and basepad.

Atlas says 40 S&W, 140 mm tubes, 21+1 and 20 reloadable using Grams followers and the lock back tab removed. For their 140 mm 9mm mags, 23+1 with lock back tab removed, and those tubes work 9mm (assuming 9mm Luger), .38 Super, and .38 Super Comp. Dawson mags are 20 for .40 S&W, and 23 for 9mm in 140 tubes.

I do realize Kosh75287 is not shooting a 2011 platform so this info really isn't helpful. Without knowing what the specific pistol is cannot help if there are aftermarket mags with higher capacity. Regardless, it doesn't help with his issue with the rules. For 22+ years 9mm is considered minor in Limited. .357 Sig was only approved fairly recently as an exception, and if IPSC would ever answer my question it may not be legal now. That said if any 9mm sized case cartridge (9x19mm making major, .38 Super, .38 Super Comp, 9x21, 9x23, 38 TJ et al) was accepted as major in USPSA Limited/IPSC Standard it would kill .40 S&W as the preferred round for the division. I believe .358 Sig was approved partially because it did not increase mag capacity beyond the .40 S&W cartridge.

17+1 does allow shooting 2 positions in a legal stage before reload; however, there is little margin for error.


I do realize that

 

[Kosh75287]

It's a Tanfoglio Witness in .38 Super. NOT the $4200 "Domina" race gun, just the basic, iron-sighted, non-compensated, regular (aka PRACTICAL) sized pistol.

 

[IPSCGuy]

My 2011 built on an STI Edge frame didn't cost anywhere close to $4,200...in $1k+ range. As accurate, or better, than anyother pistol I own, and it just runs.... The only issue was a broken ambi thumb safety once after about 5 years of hard use which not atypical for 2011 (edited to correct typo) ambi safeties. I would check the Henning Group (Henning Group Store - Battlehook, Blue Line, EDC and Competition products) and see if they have base pads that will fit your Witness and be legal in USPSA Limited division, which means the magazine has to be not longer than 5.561” (141.25 mm) measured along rear of magazine from bottom of basepad to feedlots. Pretty certain they do. For USPSA you would need a minimum of 3 mags, and preferably 4 for match. There is picture on how to measure in the USPSA rule book pg 115 and it is accessible on line.

I would work up a 130PF load if you reload (115 gr - 1,130 fps, 124 gr 1,048, 125 gr 1,040, 130 gr 1,000, or 147 gr 885) and go have fun. Or shoot a 170 PF .38 Super load, but it will be scored minor and have fun. Just my opinion but I think shooting factory would be too expensive and availability for .38 Super still isn't very good.

More and more people are using kydex hosters for Limited as opposed to race holsters -- much cheaper and better retention. I change to that several years ago for my limited pistol.

Doubt USPSA/IPSC will ever change the current rules unless to drop .357 Sig. Allowing a 9mm type case to be major PF in the Limited/Standard would overnight kill .40 S&W as a competitve round simply due to the increased magazine capacity. Many would start shooting 9x19mm in major if allowed like in Open. More plentiful brass and cheaper to load than .38 Super/.38 Super Comp, etc. Those who are die hards or don't have the $ for new pistols would continue shooting what they have but eventually the divisions would be dominated by 9s IMO.

P.S. Certain there are others who make base good pads that would fit your mags so search and make your own decision if that is what you want to do. Or, shoot what you have. Just realize that with 17+1 you can typically shoot two locations without reloading. But, you only have 2 spare rounds so if you need 3 makeups you have to reload early or do a standing reload....and 2 takes you to slide lock/empty mag if you engage the typical 4 targets, 2 rnds each at a shooting location or view with 2 makeups.

 

[Kosh75287]

SIncerely, thanks for everyone's input.

 

[StuartV]

It's like 50/50 overall, but 100% .40 at the top of the sport

.40 is not 100% top of the sport anymore....

Nils just won the Limited Nationals shooting a $600 plastic gun (Canik Rival) in 9mm. The next 34 places were shooting Major, but the winner was shooting Minor. Which I find hilarious and awesome. I imagine the guys at Masterpiece Arms are kinda pissed, as they sponsored the match and they sell $3500 2011 race guns specifically for Limited. Beaten by a $600 plastic gun. Ouch! LOL!

 

[waktasz]

That is true, although it's an absolute outlier. He shot more alphas than anyone and was 6 to 20 seconds faster than the rest of the top 5.
If he had shot major he'd have won by a lot more than .4 match points.

 

[YVK]

Nils just won the Limited Nationals shooting a $600 plastic gun (Canik Rival) in 9mm. The next 34 places were shooting Major, but the winner was shooting Minor. Which I find hilarious and awesome. I imagine the guys at Masterpiece Arms are kinda pissed, as they sponsored the match and they sell $3500 2011 race guns specifically for Limited.

And last year he didn't win exactly because he was shooting minor too.
He is probably going to win three Nationals this year. None of that will change .40 and 2011 dominance in the Limited.
Expect an all steel Canik next year. Because plastic makes it harder even for Nils.

 

[StuartV]

And last year he didn't win exactly because he was shooting minor too.
He is probably going to win three Nationals this year. None of that will change .40 and 2011 dominance in the Limited.
Expect an all steel Canik next year. Because plastic makes it harder even for Nils.

I wonder if Canik will release a .40 in the U.S.. I think I've seen references to .40 cal versions of some of their pistols that they sell overseas, just not in the U.S.. How cool would it be if they released an all-steel .40 version of the Rival??

Last year he didn't win because he was shooting Minor? You're implying that if he had just been shooting 40 instead, he would have won. That may be true strictly in the sense of redoing the math on his hits, for higher point values. But, it really ignores the possibility that shooting 40 would have possibly made him either shoot just a little slower or just a little less accurately, and that it might have made his times slower from having smaller mag capacity. In other words, I don't think you can really fairly say that he didn't win "exactly" because he was shooting minor.

Also, sure, 40 cal 2011s will continue to dominate because that is what almost everyone shoots. And nobody is going to rush out and ditch their 40 2011s to change to 9mm just because Nils won. But, just because there is inertia among the competitors that dictates MOST of them will continue to shoot what they have (which are 40s) doesn't really take away from the truth of what Nils has shown - which is that 9mm Minor absolutely CAN be competitive in Limited. Something that he's shown is true at the very top, but which is even more true at the lower levels where it is even more "the shooter" and not "the gun".

If his win contributes to any kind of change, I would totally expect it to be something slow that won't really show up in the stats for a few years - as new shooters come into the Limited division. People who are not already committed to a 40/2011 and who decide to try going with a 9mm setup instead.