They are testing for LAW ENFORCEMENT which has different requirements. Your average citizen is not shooting through SUV doors, walls, etc. Bonded bullets are overkill for the average CCW user and usually they expand less than normal JHP's as penetration is paramount for many LE scenarios.

 

They are testing for LAW ENFORCEMENT which has different requirements. Your average citizen is not shooting through SUV doors, walls, etc. Bonded bullets are overkill for the average CCW user and usually they expand less than normal JHP's as penetration is paramount for many LE scenarios.

Conversely, I'd think LE is more concerned with over penetration as they are much more likely to fire a gun in a crowded area than would the normal citizen.

 

Dispite the sample size for each caliber being limited to one (1), I am happy my CCW/home defense weapon is in 45 caliber base on their tests. OTOH the type of bullet tested is not what I use.
Interesting write-up.

 

Until someone can convince me 100% my Federal Premium 147gr HST 9mm hollow points and my 45 cal ball ammo will not do the job for my self defense they stay my ammo for EDC ammo.

 

Until someone can convince me 100% my Federal Premium 147gr HST 9mm hollow points...

Interestingly, Fed. dropped the +p 147 gr. HST in 2019.

 

FBI? That made me laugh.

DoubleTap 230gr HP. I see they now offer something called "defense jacketed HP", I just don't know what better these are.
The DT's are loaded near +P, so they run hot compared to many others.
Or use any other COTS 230gr HP, they work.

 

They are testing for LAW ENFORCEMENT which has different requirements. Your average citizen is not shooting through SUV doors, walls, etc. Bonded bullets are overkill for the average CCW user and usually they expand less than normal JHP's as penetration is paramount for many LE scenarios.

My most likely ccw encounter would be at a gas station. Glass, and door performance, is required.

Bonded just holds the jacket on well. Weight retentionafter impact is key. Be aware, some jhp is designed to mechanically stick together, and doesnt require bonding.

Until someone can convince me 100% my Federal Premium 147gr HST 9mm hollow points and my 45 cal ball ammo will not do the job for my self defense they stay my ammo for EDC ammo.

HST has a larger open hollow point, compared to my other jhp's.

Why? Maybe because when it clogs with drywall or wood, the extra large surface area of that clog, offers enough force to deform and expand the bullet.

I dont know, but HST does well in my tests. HST is my favorite go to jhp. Especially for .40.

 

Does one really need 18 inches of penetration?

I heard from somewhere that the reason for the 18 inches requirement is because of the Miami Dade shooting where an agent's bullet went through the side, entering the arm but failing to reach the heart. The bad guy went on shooting.

I don't think that most of cases of self defense will require us to shoot a bad guy from the side so I'm happy with ammo that can penetrate 12 inches or more, which is more than enough to penetrate nearly everyone's vital organs if they're facing you.

 

Does one really need 18 inches of penetration?

I heard from somewhere that the reason for the 18 inches requirement is because of the Miami Dade shooting where an agent's bullet went through side, entering the arm but failing to reach the heart. The bad guy went on shooting.

I don't think that most of cases of self defense will require us to shoot a bad guy from the side so I'm happy with ammo that can penetrate 12 inches or more, which is more than enough to penetrate nearly everyone's vital organs if they're facing you.

This seems like a question that answers itself. I must be in the twilight zone.

 

James, the old cup 'n core JHP's worked well. I know of one instance where a State Trooper fired a Fed. 9mm 115 gr. JHP +p+ that penetrated the rear end door of an older SUV and then penetrated two seats and finally the driver side headrest before penetrating the Bad Guy's brain pan making him DRT! That's performance, but your average CCW person isn't going to need that.

The average person is far more likely to stumble into a robbery at a quick shop or be robbed in a Walmart parking lot.

 

James, the old cup 'n core JHP's worked well. I know of one instance where a State Trooper fired a Fed. 9mm 115 gr. JHP +p+ that penetrated the rear end door of an older SUV and then penetrated two seats and finally the driver side headrest before penetrating the Bad Guy's brain pan making him DRT! That's performance, but your average CCW person isn't going to need that.

The average person is far more likely to stumble into a robbery at a quick shop or be robbed in a Walmart parking lot.

LEOs don't always shoot people through barriers, probably not even a majority of the time. Supposedly the new LEO ammo works better on the average person that the average CCW person is going to encounter in addition to working better against barriers than the old cup and core bullets which is why cup and core bullets have fallen out of favor.

Could be marketing, I can't say, I am not allowed to shoot enough people to have good science on it.

 

Does one really need 18 inches of penetration?

some guy in a tee shirt whole insists on facing you full frontal

Well, one thing is for sure…

The old ladies at the hall have set down their Bingo cards and are reading 1911Forum tonight! Hot flashes galore

 

I took a round that made their list some years ago… Hornady CD… it has proved to be a good round in my gun anyway.

 

Since the hit probability by the typical LE officer is around 18%, they should be concerned about a lot of things.

What is the supposed hit probability of non LEO's?

Is this a rhetorical question? I believe overpenetration concerns are a marketing ploy used to sell fast expanding, shallow penetrating ammo. I also think if you have a firearm for self defense you should be aware of the 4 rules. The 4th being "be aware of your target and what's behind it".

No, not a rhetorical question. You quoted a number, made up or not, about the hit probability of law enforcement. Since the discussion is about the nuances of non-law enforcement shooters using the same ammo as law enforcement it would seem the hit probability of non-law enforcement shooters would be pertinent to the discussion.

I don't have numbers to quote about the typical non-law enforcement shooters hit probability, but I suspect it's lower than law enforcement's.

 

I got the number from a 2008 Rand study. I have never heard of a study done that tracks non-LEO target accuracy. I would suspect you're right about that (non-LEO) number being lower. If you read through the linked report it does appear that LEO target accuracy is getting better, but still below 50%

Reporting on police marksmanship is very inconsistent, and truly national statistics are not available. A 2008 Rand study looked at NYPD target accuracy over a decade, and which found that bullets hit their target 18 percent of the time during gunfights; 23 percent of the time from long ranges (seven yards away or more); 30 percent of the time when suspects didn’t return fire; and 37 percent of the time when the target was closer than seven yards away.

Is it true that 7 out of 10 police bullets miss their target? – Metro US

 

I'd be interested far more in FBI "hit probability" performance with tested ammo. Recoil seems a determining factor of late in FBI caliber selection.

You just have to make an educated decision and have confidence in your skill, pistol and ammo selection.

Its not theoretical when push comes to shove. Lots of examples of what calibers work, work best and work less reliable. Far too many civilians have opinions and zero experience on what works in a gun fight.

My advice: do your homework. The answer is in plain sight.

.30 Luger ain't an answer...LOLLOL LOL

 

I'd be interested far more in FBI "hit probability" performance with tested ammo. Recoil seems a determining factor of late in FBI caliber selection.

^^THIS^^

FeeBee went from a poor performing round (.38Spl) due to its old, poor bullet design (200gr RN) to the excellent .357mag and .45ACP in smaller SP and HP designs, then moved to autos in the equally excellent 10mm and .45ACP. Then because of the influx of women and lo-testosterone men they went to the ok .40S&W and .45ACP. The .40 proved to be too much for the last two groups, and FeeBee has now moved to the anemic, lo-recoil, easier to qualify-with 9mm Punibellum. They put lipstick on this little piglet by saying a magical bullet-design makes it more effective than any of the already-mentioned calibers.

The primary requirement for an FBI round is for their chair-warmers to be able to qualify with it. Period.

They are not Police and have no business telling the real Police or anyone else what others should carry. People should carry the most powerful round of their choosing for self-defense that they can control, shoot well, and conceal. Period.

 

10% gel doesn't equate to animal tissue. Its just a consistent media for testing. Penetrating 14" of gel doesn't equate to 14" of tissue, especially passing through the rib cage of a 225lb dude, or his arm, or pelvis. Ideally, to achieve an immediate com stop the bullet should pass through until it strikes the spine. For a bullet to do that consistently it will assuredly pass through if the spine is missed. Dark and gory, I get it, but those are the facts. Without penetration, nothing else matters. If you wouldn't use the round to hunt deer, I wouldn't expect consistent results on humans. As far as weight retention(and why do we care about weight retention? Because a bullet that stays together penetrates deeper, it holds more of its energy) big slow bullets tend to stay together, bonded or not, but fast bullets come apart. Once you start to get around 1500fps hp pistol bullets start to come apart.

 

It’s not just a consistent test media. The 10% Knox ballastic gel mix was designed to be a 1-to-1 equivalant for penetration and expansion mimicing freshly killed hog hindquarters they had been using. It was done that way intentionally by Martin Fackler when he was at the ballastic lab at Letterman Army Hospital. There are interviews online with him explaning it.

 

I'm not familiar with this test. How did Winchester Super X 255gr .45 Colt perform?

 

I haven't looked at this for quite a while, but how I remember it (from reading about it) was there were two tracks to this.

Track 1 is the Army developing 10% ballistic gel. That track went from figuring out that the wounds in anesthetized hogs were similar to the combat wounds they saw in soldiers. Then figuring out it didn't need to be an anesthetized hog, it could be a freshly killed hog. To designing a more easily available ballistic gel that mimicked the penetration and expansion they were seeing in hogs.

Track 2 is the FBI track. The FBI worked backwards into the problem. They used autopsies and field studies to identify the rounds they thought were the most effective. When they shot those rounds into the Army's ballistic gel, they found the known "good" rounds penetrated 12" to 18" and expanded to greater than .6". So that became the guidance.


Later, again IIRC, maybe LAPD figured out there was more to it and started testing with 4 layers of denim to check for plugging. After that, the FBI tests expanded to include denim, sheet metal, drywall, glass, etc.

That's what I remember from when I was checking out the whole gel testing thing a few years ago.

 

The S in HST stands for shapeshifters, so.....

It's pretty silly to think that cover doesn't matter. I'd like to know that my ammo won't just bounce off a car door.

 

The best ammo will exchange most of it's kinetic energy onto a defined vital organ or point. How the ammo makers play that game is interesting. No one round can do it all, it's limited by physics.

"Bam bam bam, and make each one count", is probably more important than mushroom diameter or how far in it went. Gotta 1st be able to hit the target, and in 45acp I suspect FMJ vs HP will still provide stopping damage.

I do find it a bit confusing, ammo makers are like toothpaste makers, every 6-12mo something "better" hits the market. Didn't Federal or Winchester already build & test 25,000 different types of bullet designs over past "200" years ? How much better can a bullet get?

For inside dwellings, would a M855 in 45acp be a good choice?

 

Boge said:
What if werewolves, immune to silver and able to feast during daylight hours, attacked you?

Indeed, my first day in Saudi Arabia and I saw a human form dressed head to toe in black wearing sandals and whatever was under that black wardrobe had hairy feet. At the time I was thinking werewolf and here I am w/o a silver bullet ! There were two yellow looking eyes peering out the holes in the head dress. I got the hell out of there pronto. True story..you can't make this crap up !

 

Ballistic Jell /Gel, wet phone books (yes once there was phone books), etc etc.

See ..... all this testing on ammo performance is just peachy but the problem is test media isn't firing back, trying to light you up. Thus, if you can't master your pistol , your ammo is meaningless. Test and argue all you want on bullet performance and expansion, over penetration etc etc. If you can't shoot & hit, all else is noise. If you don't practice situational awareness, your CCW is still in your holster as you bleed out.

Some can't hit a phone book or ballistic Jell/Gell ...LOL and that's with no stress and taking long to aim .

There are plenty of calibers with a long track record of planting men on the deck but few pistol calibers do it with one shot. Yes a head shot but those not the norm.

Just a passing note: in combat you and the other guy are dehydrated, a fact of life and when hit by a projectile, the results are far more dynamic than on a civilian in his well fed, hydrated condition.

 

My go to expert for ballistics and bullet performance was Paul Harrell.
After owning Mk23 and M45a1 I am also done with handguns used by the armed forces.👎👎 I like Massad Ayoob, both S&W M57 and Colt Pocket 9 he spoke highly of proved to be great pistols.👍👍

 

Only if his hair was perfect and you had HST’s…

 

the 9mm ammunition used by the FBI fails to save you when a bear is chewing on your leg.

But ammunition that WILL save you when a bear is chewing on your leg, is ALWAYS going to fail the FBI tests.

Anyone ever really THINK on that one?

 

Soon analysis will show .380 ACP is as effective with modern ammo as .45ACP or 9mm Luger and new service weapon will be G25.

 

More likely the 30 Super Carry..there’s so much money already spent that they have to get a return somehow. After all, you do get one more round in a mag than the 9’s. 🤪

 

10% ??? How does that possibly qualify? I figured 30% would be the bottom of the barrel…..

 

Most Police qualifications are just "field sobriety tests" - they have little to do with actual shootings on the street.

I used to read the NYPD SOP-9 every year (they quit publishing that, but they still do a report of shots fired you have to dig a little deeper now). To get to 11% hits on the street, one year (I forget which but I think it was around 2009?) they inclluded a cop suicide, shooting a police horse and a police dog, if you dig deeper 9% of shots fired at bad guys were hits to bad guys.

In a fairly well known incident they shot the bad guy 9 times and the guy they were defending 11 times (fortunately the good guy lived and the bad guy died). In another incident they killed the bad guy and hit 9 bystanders (likely some of those were just bullet fragments or richochetts).

I'm pretty sure you know this, I'm just restating the obvious

Riposte

 

They need to adopt G25 and hire experts to prove its just as effective as 9x19. The case length difference between .380 and 9mm Luger is only 2mm. We already know 9x19 is as effective as 11.43x23🤣