The ergonomics of shooting will be better if you simply mount the red dot to the receiver rail. Cheek weld will be much better, accuracy will be better as well.

 

I have seen dots mounted on the carry handle. While not optimal (you really end up with a chin weld), it can be done.

Also, how much value is the carry handle to you with an optic on the top of it.

If the handle is detachable, I would take it off and put a rear BUIS.

I would not mount the optic on the handle, but the carry handle is not that important to me. I usually use a sling.

 

You can use something like this gooseneck mount, but you'll be carrying weight you don't really need. It is an option for those with A1 & A2 uppered rifles.

 

If you want a red dot on top of the carry handle try a smaller re dot like the micro aim point of Burris. I prefer the Eotech but don't use carry handles. If I did I'd stick to the standard site.

 

And you better have a giraffe neck so you can crane your head up off the stock to see through the optic. They made a whole system for doing this (Delta) before the flattop upper was devised, including a riser cheekpiece. It was highly unsatisfactory. In combat, you don't want anything that forces you to raise your head higher to sight. If you now have a flattop upper with rail, please put the red-dot on that and pick up a folding rear sight for emergencies - or not. I have one rifle with a red-dot and no emergency sight. Honestly, I think I'm going to hit the torso of an attacker at 25 yds or less without the red-dot working. You can train for this and actually do it - its pretty cool.

 

There is nothing cool about mounting a modern red dot sight on top of a carry handle. It was done early in the history of red dot because there were no flat top AR, they had to make do with what they have. Like others eluded to, mounting a dot that high require the shooter to keep the head high and off the stock, there is no cheekweld and make an unstable sight picture. The mechanical offset in dot alignment is high also, almost 3" above the bore axis. Makes it hard to engage a small target at close range or even a big target at close range.


If your receiver has a flat top, ditch the carry handle and properly mount the optics on the receiver. Get a good folding rear sight or a fixed rear sight such as the Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed sight to serve as a back up.

 

My small size model EOTech red dot optic mounted on the upper receiver rail with my LMT fixed rear sight.

Same EOTech with quick detachable riser mount (LaRue Tactical) and Troy folding rear sight, this setup makes my iron sights co-witness with my EOTech optic at the bottom 1/3 of the field of view of my optic.

Plus one with the other members replies, just mount it directly on the upper receiver rail, you could however if you wish carry your detachable carry handle with you if you don't have a rear backup sight yet.

On my top picture is my LMT fixed rear sight, they're the same as the rear portion of the standard detachable carry handle, actually if you don't mind cutting a perfectly functioning carry handle, you could cut the rear end of it to make a fixed iron sight like my LMT rear sight.

If the front iron sight bothers you take a look at my second picture, I used a quick detachable riser mount for my EOTech which raised my optic so the rear sights are lower on the optic field of view, the iron sights are lower and doesn't partially block my red dot view.

 

This is what you want. EoTech or Aim Point as far forward as you can on the upper receiver. Use a good back up sight that you can line up with your front sight post. You can use YouTube to help zero your optic.
You can also try to contact some one who used them in the Army. They can help you set it up properly.

 

Ditch the handle and mount the red dot on a 1/2" riser.

 

Anything mounted on top of a carry handle is going to be too far above the stock to comfortably use and it's also going to be so far above the bore that holdovers and unders are going to be a real issue.

If it's a good Eotech with the sideways batteries I'd mount it on a Larue mount and use a Knight's Armament 300M buis, or a Larue fixed buis.

If it's an old style Eotech, I'd run it as-is until I could afford an Aimpoint Pro.

There is no reason for using an irons only carbine for defensive purposes in 2015. To effectively use it low/no light conditions with a white light, you do need an illuminated optic.

 

Wow! Thanks guys! Especially the pics. I FINALLY truly understand the options and co-witnessing. Will be going with receiver mount.

 

You now perhaps understand something about co-witnessing. First, it is meaningless. If your optic fails and you are forced to use the irons, it doesn't matter at all if the irons and optic 'co-witness'. You only use one or the other. However, to the orderly mind, absolute co-witness seems 'right'. This is when both the optic and the irons are zeroed at the same distance (usually 50 yds). When the red dot is turned on and you raise the rear sight and get a proper sight picture with the front sight, the red dot will be sitting exactly on top of the front sight post. Cool, but nobody shoots like that, so its just an interesting thing.
The red dot does not have to be lined up or centered in the lens. Wherever the red dot appears in the lens when its on the target, it'll hit the target assuming its zeroed and taking into account the over/under of the trajectory at that range. So, even red dots with a small lens have plenty of room for a decent field of view even if the front sight is in the sight picture. This makes the 'lower 1/3 co-witness' somewhat pointless. Raising a red dot or other optic with a riser to get this lower 1/3 co-witness is therefore about as wise as putting a scope on a carry handle. Keep your head as low as you can if you find yourself on a 'two-way range'.

 

Wish I lived in Arizona. I like to help people out. It doesn't matter who you are. If people are properly trained they are much safer! I think Aim Point has some good videos on how to zero the optic. It is pretty much the same procedure for all of there products.

As you can see, I love Aim Point. I still have mine that was issued to me in 2006 when I went to Afghanistan.

Good luck with your project.

View attachment 141555
Notice the placement of the Aim Point on these rifles.
View attachment 141556

 

PA State Police during the man hunt last year.

 

Poor location, IMHO, note the lack of good cheek weld Would be better off on a riser in front of the handle/sight set for co-witness.

I don't have any of that pattern gun, all mine are flat tops and I just mount in a similar position at the from of the receiver. My favorite is the Comp M4 on my KAC SR-15. 2 MOA dot and dead simple. Co-witnesses perfectly with the flip up sights on the SR-15 using the mount that came with it. Set so the front of the mount is in the last slot forward on the receiver.

 

^^^ Yes, that is why my orignal question. I've seen several LE set up on top, just seemed too far to me.

BTW - what is that monsterous thing on his hand guard? A mini bazooka? Spotting scope? Surely not a light.

 

Most LEO departments, especially State, often get M16s from the Government. Would suspect they simply slapped a AimPoint on the A1 receiver. Yes, they is a monstrosity of a light!

 

Daniel Defense Fixed BUIS with a lower 1/3 cowittness red dot.
Light, strong, simple, and cheaper than some flip-up sights.
I have the same setup on my rifle and it's great.

 

Another pic of Daniel Defense irons with a red dot (gun on the left). Works with Regular Red Dot, Mini Red Dot, or EOtech.
Same cheekweld view regardless of which sights you're looking at since they cowitness.
The rifle on the right has flip-up Magpul Pros with an ACOG - another option if you want an optic with irons.

 

I'm pretty happy with my Aimpoint Pro and Troy flip up sights. Battery life of Aimpoints are hard to beat for the price.

 

I like your setup. My personal AR is a lot like yours.

 

Jon's sticky in this forum is as good of a primer on this discussion as you can prolly find online.

One thing you just cant get from pictures on the internet (any photo really) is a simulation of the experience of using a red dot and maintaining target focus with both eyes.

Lower 1/3 really is a good balance between the diminution of the irons and consistent geometry without getting too high or off-axis etc.

 

I started out in the late 1980's with fix handle M16/M4/AR's be it Military issue or my own builds (there were no flat tops back then). We mounted our issued 3x and 4x scopes and our huge night vision scopes to the carry handle. Guess what, it worked.

Was it the best set up? No. Did it work better than not having it mounted? Yes. A chin weld was not that bad, as recoil is not that bad. Only real issue deals with bore/sight hight and axis/alignment.

Skip to the late 1990's, we got flat tops and red dots. They were made to co-witness. They were made for the 20" M16, with a riser/adapter for the shorter 14.5" M4. The dot was where the front sight was.

Enter 2002, we go to war... The 1/3 co-wit is seen as the way to go.

Today, today you are doing it all wrong unless your red dot is mounted at a 45 deg angle off the top of your weapon and not lined up with your sights.

Tomorrow red dots will be out dated...

 

All true.

As methods and tech evolve, so must we. Unless you're one of the ones still clinging to land lines and floppy disks...do they still work? Sure. Are they ideal?...well most would say 'no'.

 

On a fixed sighted rifle I'd go lower co-witness, on one that had flip up's I prefer absolute.

 

I would like for anyone interested to shoot at a target 100 yards away and move your head around behind the optic to make the dot 'move' around and see what it does to your hits. Pretty surprising. Made me really appreciate having a front sight post to help me index the gun when making longer shots.

 

I understand your arguments for lower 1/3. All I'm saying is most of you don't know how to use a red dot in the first place if you think the dot has to be centered when sighting. So, you get lower 1/3 by using a riser to get the front sight down out of the way, when it really doesn't have to be out of the way. But, what the heck - whatever you want, do it.

 

What are you talking about? Who said anything about the dot being centered?

It does have to be out of the way if you want an unobstructed view of the target. I'll take that on its merit alone. But then again I don't have xray vision..

 

Definitely ditch the carry handle the only thing your doing is making more chances of the handle loosening up when you need it most just mount it to the pic rail on the reciever and get a good rear flip and will be alset

 

I think he's saying if you shoot both-eyes-open focusing on the target, it doesn't matter what blocks the optic. Generally, this is true with a true 1X red dot sight. But it's still easier to just get a mount that is 5mm taller and actually see the target with both eyes.

 

Right, and I do but to me lower 1/3 is less distracting either way. I'm measurably faster on target with lower 1/3. Less for my eyes to process. It's also more comfortable for a lot of guys who use their guns for more than just a 25 minute range session. Keeping the head more upright leads to less posture fatigue, YMMV but anybody that shoots a pistol or rifle like a turtle, will have neck issues at some point.

Either way it isn't 'stupid' as he put it. And I can make many more arguments for lower 1/3 than I can make against it.

But hey, what do 97% of the dudes that use it know?

 

By the way that gun looks like a GI issue M4. Notice the thin barrel. Possibly another DOD to civilian LE weapon. When the US pulled back from a number of NATO bases a ton of weapons we had stockpiled for the cold war came home and DOD surplused it out to local LE. My M16A1 was new in the wrapper dated 1973.

Has the military ever issued a 16" pencil barrel, fixed carry handle carbine upper? That looks like a civilian upper to me.

 

I'm no expert but I think the CAR-15 used in Vietnam was a pencil barrel. I think Colt also made an HBAR CAR-15 as well.

 

It has an A2 carry handle though, so it has to be more recent than that.