.

 

Looking at the gun on the auction, the FJA and p proofs on the left were apparently used at Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S.

Wrong. FJA for Frank J Atwood inspected only Ithaca and Rem-Rand pistols period end of story and accept no other! US&S pistols were inspected by RCD in a circle for Robert C. Downie. Had you spent less then $50 for a Clawson book, you would know this and not be conned into spending over $2000 for a $700 gun. You have been cheated. If you haven't already paid the seller, don't! I would rather be kicked off Gunbroker then spend that kind of money.

and the seller's argument is well laid out in the description (see link below)

The seller is full of sh*t so much so, that I have to believe he's a crook. I don't know about betting my life, but I damn sure wouldn't bet $2000!

Maybe I missed it with all the seller's b/s, but I don't see any type of inspection/return period in all that hoopla. Also, in looking at his letter, he's managed to block out part of it and it appears they told him they couldn't tell him anything about his gun. That tells me he's a smoke and mirrors artist sho-nuf.

 

Sorry but you just bought yourself a rather expensive MUT!

Sorry but you just bought yourself a rather expensive MUT! Your method of "Research" is what I have come to call the "Lowest Common Denominator" method of making decisions. Bady and Hallock are old books and full of mistakes. One notable author remarked to me "I was re-reading Bady last week and you know, It's not all wrong". The serial number list that Hallock "Compiled" and published had a considerable amount of Kentucky windage in it. A considerable number of collectors have spent thousands of hours examining pistols over a number of years with the inescapable conclusion that the serial number range of US&S pistols is 1041405 to 1096404. Bad information like a bad penny just never seems to go away. In the mid 1990s, the current US&S Co. decided to write an official history of the company. The job was given to two white collar employees who probably had never gotten their hands dirty. They apparently had no knowledge of what went on in the company let alone what went on during WWII, but that did not stop then from writing the official history. To their credit, they wrote the National Automatic Pistol collectors association (NAPCA) and asked for information. A number of experienced collectors gave them lots of detailed information including conclusive proof that the serial number range was as stated above. However since they did not know anything and had no way of evaluating the wheat from the chaff, they simply published all of the old bogus data from Hallock and Bady. All of the collectors were shaking their heads for years after that. (Stupid is as stupid does.) The story does not end there. I took on the job of doing the Krause Publications Standard Catalog of Military Firearms" (Price Guide) 1911/1911A1 section. The first edition had prices of just about every variation that were pretty close to reality, and the price guide was a great reference. However the editors (Without asking me,) decided to add a serial number list right in the middle of my section. You guessed it, they copied hallock’s list with the bogus US&S range and a number of other mistakes. Needless to say, there were some heated conversations with the editors, but they corrected it in the second edition. Best Karl

 

Remington Rand

That pistol was discussed on the CSP board, and the results were the same. It is a Remington Rand with a US&S slide, and there is not one shred of evidence to prove otherwise. Bad information is just bad information, but periodically someone dredges up the old incorrect serial number list and has another go at it. I saw a pistol in Tulsa with the same Remington Rand frame in the incorrect serial number range with a US&S slide with a detailed explanation as to why it was correct. Sorry, but I didn't stop to read all of it. If it needs a detailed explanation to prove it right, skip it. Too many things to prove it wrong and nothing to prove it right.

 

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I can see that some of the info is conveniently made to appear blurred so as to prevent accurate appraisal of the marks. I will try to negotiate with him to negate the sale, and possibly meet him in the middle and pay his gunbroker fees or something, just to avoid being kicked off GB. However, I would think that GB would have some sort of process whereby a high dollar pistol with this much potential difference in price between real and mismatch would be deemed a misrepresentation. Any thoughts? I will not quote any of you, and I just want to get into collecting as a hobby and as an heirloom type investment. Looks like I started off on the wrong high end pistola.

 

This is a perfectly good example of why it's important to know what you're buying, especially when parting with a large sum of money like that.

 

Buy books & look an pistols

Sorry about your misfortune. You need to educate yourself before you start buying. Start out with Clawson's "Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols" Go to shows and look at every pistol that you can, and always...always, be sure to buy the gun and not the story. After a while you develop a pretty good feel about whether a particular gun is right or not, but it is still tough with internet sales. And always remember, it's a jungle out there.

 

I think the issue is just as much of who is "right" as anything else. I do not doubt that this is what you guys confirm, but I also would not want to knock on Hallock's door and tell him that he needs to educate himself on the 1911. I am sure that some choice words would follow.

 

It's been known for many years that most of the serial number lists floating around were inaccurate. But it has also been known for a long time that all US&S pistols were RCD inspected. No offense, but I'm amazed how so many people know about this and other online forums, yet they'll still buy something first, and then come ask us if they got screwed or not. I see threads like this all the time. It's called leaping before you look.

If I were you I would flat out refuse to buy it, nor even cover his GB fees. He provided so much info in his ad that he must have known what he was selling. I don't think you'll be kicked off Gunbroker if they give you a chance to explain to them what happened.

 

If you have been shown that Hallock's list is wrong, you don't have to knock on his door and tell him so. Just be advised that it is wrong, and let it go at that. A couple of other glaring mistakes in his list is that the first Ithaca serial number was 1208674, and the first Remington Rand serial number was 1279699. It can't get much worse than that. There were other more accurate serial number lists out at the time he published his book, but I guess only he knows why he chose the one he did.
This is from another book that used the same serial number list as Hallock.

 

Prove it.

If you can back up the fact that it is a "Mutt" and no the real thing here is Gunbroker's policy:

While fraud is virtually non-existent at GunBroker.com, our Buyer's Protection Program gives you as the bidder the peace of mind to bid and buy with confidence. Our Buyer's Protection covers two specific forms of fraud:

You pay for an item and never receiving it, or
The item you receive is materially different that its description, such as winning a stainless steel pistol and receiving a blued one instead.

I would say that if it is advertised as a matching pistol and it can be proven it is not, then you are eligible for a refund. He can claim it is not fraud "to his knowledge" and still be allowed to sell on Gunbroker but I think you have a case. Also find out what that letter states from US&S. It does look like it is worthless and states that they can't tell anything about it...

 

.

 

I appreciate the responses. I would like this thread to survive so that other people are not caught unaware. When you consider the multiple sources, the duplicate serial numbers, the arsenal refinishes, and the lack of someone providing histories for the company such as Smith and Wesson's Roy Jinks, you can see the significant compexity of the WWII models, and the years 1942-1944 in particular.

(BTW, dsk, no offense taken. I consider it sage advice)

 

refuse the gun and don't give him a cent. The gun is worth maybe $700 +/- as a shooter grade. It will never have collector value.

 

refuse the gun and don't give him a cent. The gun is worth maybe $700 +/- as a shooter grade. It will never have collector value.

I am sorry that ramptester bought a mix match. But any bid is a contract. He should negotiate with the seller or settle the dispute through gunbroker IF the seller provided FALSE information. If seller offer inspection period, that's legit reason for rejection. But I do not think it's an excuse for not paying only because he later find out it's not worth as much as he originally think.

 

It's not good protocol to make bids on an auction, then win it, only to find out later you didn't do your homework. At least offer to cover his seller fees.

 

The seller advertises it as a US&S, and it is a Remington Rand.



NO RESERVE!!! Scarce WWII Union Switch and Signal M1911A1 .45 Semi-auto Pistol. This appears to be an unfired example of this scarce variation of the Colt 1911A1 service pistol. The Union Switch & Signal Company of Swissvale, PA manufactured these pistols in 1943 after the Singer Sewing Machine Co. had made a trial run of 500 pistols. The contract was transferred to US&S, which was a maker of railroad equipment. This gun was inspected by "FJA" and bears his stamp along with the "P" proof next to the magazine release and on top of the slide in front of the rear sight. The left side is marked with the intertwined "USS" logo in front of "U.S.& S. CO." "Swissvale, PA. U.S.A" The right side (ejection port side) is marked "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" over the serial number and "M 1911A1 U.S. ARMY" The grips are the correct "Keyes-Fiber" version with the five-pointed star circumscribing a "K" and reinforcing ribs inside with reinforcing around the screw holes. Rock Island Auction Company sold three of these pistols in their December 2006 auction. They sold for $3737.50, $3450.00 & $4600,00. None of them appear to be as good as this pistol. The only flaw that I can see is a ding to the rear sight from being hit on something. The slide is not effected, only the sight. May be visible in photo. If you want an example of this variation you will not find a better one. Don't miss out on this opportunity to add a near-perfect specimen to your collection. This may be your only chance to acquire a US&S at any price so bid today and remember this is a NO RESERVE auction! email me with any questions.

 

I am sorry that ramptester bought a mix match. But any bid is a contract. He should negotiate with the seller or settle the dispute through gunbroker IF the seller provided FALSE information. If seller offer inspection period, that's legit reason for rejection. But I do not think it's an excuse for not paying only because he later find out it's not worth as much as he originally think.

Duhhh, FACT: The seller has offered beau coup FALSE information or haven't you read this entire thread? FACT: The seller does offer a three day inspection. Why would you waste your time and money shipping the gun only to have it returned for a refund? That's just plain dumb. He owes the seller nothing. The contract is null and void due the seller's dishonesty or ineptitude (it doesn't matter which). Although, I agree the buyer should have read up on this earlier and done some homework, he still has the right of refusal (return) per the auction. So why jump through the hoops of paying, shipping back and forth and then hoping someone who either doesn't know what he's talking about or was just flat out lying will refund your money after you've now spent about $80 in s&h? Would you trust the seller? Would you give him your money?

Rock Island Auction Company sold three of these pistols in their December 2006 auction. They sold for $3737.50, $3450.00 & $4600,00.

Now this part is probably true, but I'd hazard a guess they were the real deal and not some humped up mixmaster with a stupid letter from US&S that proves absolutely nothing but creates more smoke. That statement is about the only correct thing the seller stated.

 

Buyer beware rules the day. As a veteran collector of 1911s, from both WW1 & WW2, I can honestly say that after making several acquisitions over the last 50 years, I've seen this mistake made by young, inexperienced folks too many times. First, Kenneth R. Hallock's research was proven wrong several years ago. Second, if somebody wants to purchase a genuine US&S, that has not been arsenal refurbished, here are the 3 things you need match up. For starters, SN must be in the legit range. Rem-Rand ended 1943 with SN 1041404. U.S. Ordnance then assigned the very next SN of 1041405 for US&S to begin their production. US&S mfg. ended with SN 1096404. Anything outside of this range is bogus. Next, the US&S logo & address must be on the left side of the slide. Anything stamped on the right side of the slide, is a replacement. Last, the spacing on the right side of the frame, forward of the slide stop pin hole, must be correct. US&S utilized the widest spacing of all the WW2 contractors. It needs to appear as " M 1911 A1 U.S. ARMY " .... If these 3 conditions are not present, then the Buyer should walk away. To close, I have a sad story to share. Years ago, I attended an Estate Sale in southern Missouri. The auctioneer swore he was selling a genuine US&S pistol. I tried to tell him it was bogus. To me, it was a legit US&S slide, mounted to a Rem-Rand frame. Probably a re-furb from Korea or Vietnam. The right side of the frame was a dead giveaway. The SN was not even close to the accepted range for US&S. It was a definite Rem-Rand SN. But the auctioneer knew better & sold the pistol to some fool, who sadly paid over 4 Grand for his mistake.