I don't have any personal experience but my Department is moving that way. From speaking to several people involved in the Test & Eval the biggest issue for carrying concealed was for people who carry IWB

Almost any type of outside holster carry did not print more then a non-RDS pistol. The extra bulk is on top of the slide, not at the end where it sticks out.

If you DO want to carry IWB it is possible, besides a new holster you may need a longer belt and some new pants because of the bulk.

 

I've not had an issue with concealing a RDS pistol. Most of the time I'm carrying OWB and wearing a untucked button down shirt to cover the gun and spare mag. From time to time I will carry my G17 AIWB and it's covered with either a t-shirt or polo shirt and again no issues with it being concealed.

 

I've not had an issue with concealing a RDS pistol. Most of the time I'm carrying OWB and wearing a untucked button down shirt to cover the gun and spare mag. From time to time I will carry my G17 AIWB and it's covered with either a t-shirt or polo shirt and again no issues with it being concealed.

Good timing! Which holster is this? I'm in need of a close riding OWB holster.

And is that an STI Staccato? If so, how do you like it.

 

Thank you and that makes a lot of sense. I live in Houston, TX, and here it is hot and humid most of the year. I mostly wear my gun IWB at 8:00/9:00 (left...) under a polo shirt. This is probably the reason for my difficulty!

 

I agree with Hawkeye and as his pictures illustrate...I personally don't find red dots hard to conceal at all. The butt of the grip is the area that I generally have the most problems with, not the area where the red dot sits. It just doesn't protrude. I typically carry a 4.25" M&P Core w/RMR in a JM Custom AIWB-WC holster.

I think people expect red dots to be hard to conceal because they do add some real estate to the overall profile of the gun and make it a bit bulkier. But again, often the area where the red dot is doesn't really stick out. Now if you carry back around 4:30 or so, the red dot "MIGHT" protrude. But at 3 o'clock, appendix, and along your centerline, it's usually fine. A good holster and belt always help too.

 

I find the concept of a red dot for CC to be offensive.
It is just one more thing that can go wrong.

Several years back I watched video of Bill Jordan (then retired Border Patrol) as he put
on shooting demonstrations. Draw and fire, knock an aspirin tablet off the table. Did not
use the sights. - - - I thought, if he can hit an aspirin tablet, I should be able to hit a 4"
circle. - - - I spent most of one Summer working on that (AND about 4K rounds), and by
the end of Summer I could do it consistently. I would put three targets on the carrier,
different spacing each time, and different heights. Self imposed no Left to Right, or Right
to Left, but had to swing between targets skipping one in each pass AND no more than
two rounds on any target at one engagement. (P.S. at 25 feet)

The largest thing to me is that your eye sight does not add or subtract from the equation.
Simply because you are not using the sights. Batteries NEVER go dead. You NEVER
get slowed down trying to find the red dot. The red dot NEVER gets hung up in clothing.
You NEVER have to remember if it is turned on.

All of that aside, it is just a LOT more fun doing that much shooting. :rock:

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

I shot a gun with a Old C more dot once.
After the first shot, I completely lost the dot.

Now I'm a big fan of red dots on my Ar rifles.
But a rifle has 4 points where it comes in contact with your body.
So when you shoulder the rifle, the Dot in right where it should be.

On a handgun only your two hands hold it, easier to lose.

I would think a laser would be a better set up.

I'm not saying the dot on a handgun doesn't have merit,
I'm just not seeing it as a better mouse trap yet.

 

Red dot sights....

I started using red dot reflex sights in the 1990's in USPSA competition. Jerry "the Burner" Barnhart won the USPSA Nationals with an Aimpoint, (1992?) and all the top shooters started using red dot sights.....

My first red dot sight was a Tasco Pro Point, but within a short time, I changed to a C-more railway with an 8 MOA dot. I still like and prefer a 6 or 8 MOA dot when using red dot sights.

When I first started drawing and shooting from the holster using a red dot sight, I would on occasion, lose the dot.....however, as I kept practicing, I learned to "index" the gun on the target in a very consistent manner that allowed me to pick up the dot and maintain the dot when shooting very fast.

Even though red dot sights may allow faster sight acquisition and better hits, I only use them for gun games. For concealed carry, I always use regular iron sights. For most self defense situations, the distance is relatively close, and more often than not, less than 10 yards.....

 

I currently have two otherwise 100% identical guns that I'm experimenting with for carry and the optic one is able to employ a hell of a lot more precision but the iron one has a certain flexibility especially up close that I'm having difficulty matching with the optic gun. I'm very experienced with using both but the issue becomes on a non-race type gun that the dot barely if at all moves vs a high power carry type gun you start to wait on the dot to settle instead of simply getting near full alignment with irons and "knowing" the gun to simply fire again and get a hit so I'm seeing a 20% reduction in flat out speed within 5 yards an about 10% at 7 with hits still being good and valid with irons but not nearly one hole like with the RMR. The glass also tends to fog with dirt and oil after 750 rounds

The other main issue I am not sure of a solution to is how to ensure the dot is useable at all angles like if you fall or something, you want to try and line it up perfectly and again it slows you down when you can just use irons technique and still get the hit

 

I use two different pistols for carry that have red dots on them. My staccato P (2020) has a Leopold Delta Point Pro and my Sig P320 X Full has a Romeo 1 Pro.

The Staccato P has had zero problems and the batteries have been lasting for a year in the Leopold (I have had it for two years). I change them on New Years when I change to new magazines. The Leopold does not need the thick adapter plate that you see on Hawkeyes pistol, so that is another plus for me to use it.

My Sig P320 has been a great pistol/red dot combination but the light eats batteries every 4/5 months. Not that I am complaining about battery cost but I thought it would be a lot more reliable than it is turning out to be. No warning, just one day when I take it out of the gun safe the red dot is gone.

Black Point makes great holsters and I use them along with Red Hill Tactical.

 

My 1st entry into a red dot sight was a Sig P229 Legion RX with a Romeo 1 sight. The Romeo 1 did not meet my standard for a concealed carry optic because of battery life and dependability. After a little less than a 1 year I sold it. It is my understanding that the Romeo 1 Pro is suppose to be a better optic, but I have no experience with it.

My 2nd run at this is a Glock G45 MOS which I mounted a 3.25 MOA RMR 2 on yesterday and actually sighted it in this morning. I have a Vedder OWB kydex holster for it and a double mag carrier. Since I live in Texas which allows open carry, I am not concerned if it prints a little under a t-shirt in the summer. Most people are so tuned out that I doubt that it is really noticeable. As a side note I did order the optional wings with the holster which really do a good job of pulling it in close the body at the 3:00 position.

 

I am a serious deer hunter. I would guess that I see deer that I am willing to kill about every 35 hours of hunting. In other other words, it is a pretty big deal for me, to a see a buck that fits the criteria for a kill, and then once I see him...I gotta make the shot which is never for sure. I want everything perfect. I use a Leupold scope with a firedot. The firedot activates with movement. Of course, I keep my batteries fresh and I test the scopes operation during the preparation for each hunt.

In the last three years, I have had firedot failures with two bucks, fortunately the scope has traditional crosshairs too. I was able to still make the kills, but I was a bit distracted by the fire dots unexpected absence, it kind of pissed me off - “right when I need it, and it’s down”. You gotta refocus on the task at hand. I hunt for three months almost every day, I do it for relaxation and enjoyment. It is not in a life and death situation (at least on my end). I say all of this to remind everyone that technology/ electronics fail, and often at the worst possible times. If it fails, your performance will be affected.

If you use carry an electronic sight, I hope you have co-witness. If you train with a dot, and then it does not work like it should - it will be a distraction at the very least. For carry (serious business) I will stick with irons. If I were an offensive CQB type of guy, maybe I see the benefits of electronic dot, otherwise good for games. By the way, I have seen guys shoot in Open Class and have watched as their dot “goes down” (after they just checked it), you usually hear some bad words, and their scores sux. Funny to watch on a one way range.

 

Point Shooters

I've watched Bill Jordan shoot and I've seen Delf Bryce shoot better and faster than Jordan. Delf's gun only has to travel half as far as Bill's form his holster to firing position. Jerry Miculek may have been as fast at his best if he didn't waste time with the sights. The main difference was Delf and Bill were just as fast and accurate when someone was shooting at them first.

I met Delf Bryce at my wedding reception in 1967 he graduated from high school with my bride's aunt and uncle. Delf's sod graduated from high school with my wife.

It would probably be easier to learn to point shoot if almost every round was a tracer as the 44 Specials were for Delf. His vision was 20/10 the best that can be measured so was mine as kid and I knew several people that had a good deal better eye sight than did. I could see a bullet flash every now and then if the sun was right but I ever was able to see one hit the target.

No one today has the time, places or game to hunt Delf did as kid from 1912 1924 he spent most of his time with gun hunting and fishing financed by his Cherokee grandfather. I'll take all the help technology can give me in my new Springfield Hellcat with a Red Dot sight,

 

I find Striker 2237's note on close distances really interesting. Obviously you do not point shoot at close distance or in "off" positions. I assume that your red dor sights are co-witnessed. Do you find that it helps if you just focus on the co-witnessed sights in these situations?

 

Admittedly, I’ve never tried a red dot, so I have zero experience. My potential concerns would be: (1) Having it malfunction at exactly the worst time; and (2) either losing the dot altogether or losing precious time hunting the dot with my OCD. I may try it someday and perhaps will surprise myself, though, with the results.

 

Pretty much non issues.
1) The reliability is pretty high and most folks have backup irons that work the same as your present irons.
2) Modicum of training will address the hunting issue. My experience is a few hundred presentations help -just forget about the dot and focus on consistency.
3) Been AIWB for six years now with RDS. Everyone is different but very doable for me.

 

I am also gonna say something else on the subject... this is from the two-way range. As Soldiers we would always remind each other as the day went on, to adjust the dot intensity for different light conditions. You never want to surprise yourself with a dot at the brightest setting when you are near dark. And conversely, you don’t want to be searching for your dot in bright outdoors when your dot was adjusted to dusk. Just some thoughts... I don’t think yet brought up.

 

RDS equipped pistols are not hard to conceal. I committed and switched over to RDS a little over a year ago. It takes commitment and time on the range to learn it well. But the advantage is tremendous. And sure, electronics can fail, although it is rare. And that's why there are irons on there anyway. Big deal. Primers fail too sometimes...doesn't stop any of us from shooting.

Main advantages:
1). "Aged" eyes can now see the sight again
2). Distance shooting
3). Low light shooting
4). Threat focused as opposed to front sight focused

I am a believer.

 

I have a Red Dot on my AR, last year I upgraded from the Chinese No-Name which came with the Bushmaster many years ago, to an Aimpoint, wow what a difference it makes. Oh well, I guess also the TTM trigger from WC I dropped into it too at the same time. Shrunk the heck at of my 100Y groups, really shrunk them N-Times...

Don't have them on any of my many pistols...Why, don't need them yet, if that changes as I continue to age I will reconsider, but for now, the old adage applies for me: "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

I can see how the Dot can help at longer distances, but at legal SD distances I don't see the need for one and indeed, arguable there can be downside...Of course, vision issues can change this and to me that would be the key decision factor to going Dot on a pistol.

If you need one on your carry/SD gun, get one, if you don't, don't...Don't change over only because they have become popular and "everyone" else is doing it - that would be the absolute worse reason to do so.

 

I have a Red Dot on my AR, last year I upgraded from the Chinese No-Name which came with the Bushmaster many years ago, to an Aimpoint, wow what a difference it makes. Oh well, I guess also the TTM trigger from WC I dropped into it too 🙂 at the same time. Shrunk the heck at of my 100Y groups, really shrunk them N-Times...

Don't have them on any of my many pistols...Why, don't need them yet, if that changes as I continue to age I will reconsider, but for now, the old adage applies for me: "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

I can see how the Dot can help at longer distances, but at legal SD distances I don't see the need for one and indeed, arguable there can be downside...Of course, vision issues can change this and to me that would be the key decision factor to going Dot on a pistol.

If you need one on your carry/SD gun, get one, if you don't, don't...Don't change over only because they have become popular and "everyone" else is doing it - that would be the absolute worse reason to do so.

There is zero downside.

 

Great pistol shots and point shooting.....

One of the World's greatest revolver shooters lived from 1873---1957....Ed McGivern. He is not well known today, but he was a giant during his lifetime.
He set many handgun records for his speed and accuracy using a factory double action S&W revolver:

One record-setting feat took place in 1932 at the Lead Club Range in South Dakota, when McGivern took less than half a second to draw his gun from its holster and fire five shots from 15 feet into an area a little over an inch wide—or about the size of a half dollar. It was a feat he repeated a second time that same day. Despite numerous attempts to break McGivern’s record, it stands untouched today, some 78 years later.

The speedy shooter had a lot more tricks up his sleeve, too—not to mention, additional records to set. The man responsible for the first revolver speed-shooting records used his factory Smith and Wesson double-action revolver to shoot a dime on the fly, break six simultaneously thrown clay pigeons before they hit the ground, drive a nail into wood with a single shot and split the edge of a playing card. Even more amazing—he could do so firing with either hand!

It would have been interesting to match Ed McGivern in his day with Jerry Miculek.....both are giants of revolver shooting prowess! :rock:

 

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Red dot sights are not needed for defense at social distances. They are good for shooting at extended ranges.

"Blessed is he who only thinks of his front sight". --The Guru

DVC

I didn't say they were "needed". I said that there are many advantages to them. And, there are.

Horse/water.

 

Choose the sight type/details that you feel most confident in for SD usage; your environment, your eyesight, etc.

Concealability isn't a big worry for red dot sights. I think the more relevant question is figuring out what gives you the best fighting chance.

For different people, there might well be different answers.

I do not choose red dot sights, but my choice should not make any difference to the next person. He/she might well benefit from this technology...but the decision, whichever way it goes, should be a knowledge-based decision, considering one's own skills. Never decide by following some perceived expert, who, even if really an expert...because that person is not you. Also be cognizant of differences between shooting in a SD situation (surprise, unprovoked sudden assault) as compared to a controlled range-like setting.

If you go for a red dot set-up, do put in enough practice time so as to be comfortable that you can quickly get the gun from holster to eye/dot on target. Obviously, the same applies to iron sight set-ups (but most of us already have familiarity with these ... they're what we grew up with).

 

I had a glock 23 with a Trijicon RMR. It worked great, I was more accurate and faster to boot. There is only one issue, and it was more me than the RMR. The RMR window is an ashtray, it catches every bit of dirt, lint and crap it is exposed to. I was constantly cleaning the inside of the window. The problem is I found myself being distracted by whatever dirt or lint was on the window and not being able to focus on the dot.

If you are the type of guy that can't stand a dirty windshield, just know that having that OCD can drive you to dislike a red dot on your pistol if you use it for carry.

Again, the problem is me much more than the red dot on a pistol. Overall they are a great asset to the majority of shooters out there.

 

You're a wise person. You considered all of the practical variables in your environment. +1911.

---

SD situations tend to be so sudden, at such close range, etc., that the time required to get on target is oftentimes incredibly short. Not at all like range conditions. I think each person owes it to himself to choose whatever sight set-up gives him the best chance to get on target, probably at very close range, and probably in less than one second. The best for one's self no matter what someone else chooses.

 

I'm a convert...RDS all the way.