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Talk to me about large pistol primers

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7.2K views 30 replies 18 participants last post by  alamogunr  
#1 ·
I have CCI 300, Winchester Large Pistol primers and just received a 1000 Federal match grade large primers. I load .45 ACP - what is the difference if any between these? Loading mostly 230 fmj ball and Lswc in 200g. Bullseye and clays for powder.
Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Look @ your loading manual; if you data and loading near max velocity with the CCI or Win large pistol primers the federal primers are "hotter" than the other 2 so with that said would increase your pressure. So if your manual doesn't list the federal primer then back off your charge weight.
 
#3 ·
Primers are primers if you are doing casual shooting. Use them.

Any you don't want, send them to me. I will put them to use.
 
#4 ·
I like the WLP because they are rated for magnum loads. CCI and Federal both list a different Large Pistol Magnum Primer. Which one is better? I don't know, I don't think I'm a good enough shot with a handgun to tell though perhaps in one of the Cowboy Assault Rifles? That may bear some experimentation...
 
#6 ·
I would think that one of the Bullseye guys with experience with a Ransom Rest @ 50yds. could give you a quality comparison but for general shooting I'd bet cash that neither you or I could distinguish a difference.
 
#9 ·
I bought a thousand CCI #350 large pistol magnum primers a while back as that was all that was on the shelf at the time. I loaded 200 reduced 45 Colt rounds with them as an experiment and the first thing I found out was my Marlin 1894 won’t set them off with a single hammer strike, took two hits on every one. The Vaquero had no issue shooting them but it was a bit to windy & starting to rain so I’ll set the chronograph another day to see how the effect velocity
 
#10 ·
I don't know specifically about the match primers, but I have always heard that Federal primers are "softer" than CCI or Winchester. CCI primers are supposed to be "hard", so I use them as my first choice. However, if Federal was all I could get, I would use them.
 
#13 · (Edited)
W296 and H110 and some other "magnum" powders will require "Magnum" primers. See your reloading manual!

Magnum primers will have a "longer" brisence for more effective ignition. See the Speer/CCI reloading manual!

WLP are shown as suitable for magnum powders. See your reloading manual!

I have never heard as mentioned above (Post #2) that Federal Primers are hotter than WLP! A little help needed here from the experts!

Federal primers are said to be softer than others however research may find that the cups are the same but the compound will ignite with a lighter strike! As a D/A PPC revolver shooter I used nothing but Federal Match Primers in my practice loads.

While doing research and testing primers 20 years ago I found that Federal Match Primers begin showing their better consistency/accuracy beginning at 25 yards and beyond! They are noticeably better ay 50 yards in my testing.

When primers were impossible to come by a few years ago I used a "boat load" of CCI Magnum primers in mid range 9mm loads without making adjustment to measures. Velocity in my load/gun increased by about 20 fps without signs of overpressure. Use only recipes from your reloading manual!

Smiles,
 
#14 · (Edited)
Couldn't find the link but here is the text from an article I saved about primers. Sorry, no pics.


Yes, those pesky little things we can’t do without are hard to come by at the moment. If this rush follows past trends, it too shall pass. Let’s talk about some of the lesser-known facts about primers while we fret about whether we have enough.





I suspect most readers know that a primer has more than one job. In addition to providing a spark to ignite propellant, it gives an initial boost in pressure to help the propellant reach a self-sustaining burn. It is also part of the case-sealing system that keeps hot gases behind the bullet and out of your face.





U.S. handloaders have a choice of primer size and purpose. There are separate versions for rifle and handgun; within each category, there are two sizes.





Size Matters
The first bit of useful trivia is that even though Small Rifle and Small Pistol primer pockets share the same depth specification, Large Rifle and Large Pistol primers do not. The standard pocket for a Large Pistol primer is somewhat shallower than its Large Rifle counterpart, specifically, 0.008 to 0.009 inch less.





A number of handloaders found this out when one of the “mega-magnum” handgun cartridges appeared a few years back. Original cases were formed for Large Pistol primers. Some reloaders decided to switch to Large Rifle primers to better handle the high pressures, and they found the rifle primers stood proud of the case head, an unpleasant situation in a high-recoil revolver cartridge.





Primer EquivalencyThere have been reams written about how various brands of primers compare. Tests to compare the effects of primer substitution have been published for years. I’ve been a lab rat long enough to understand that road is fraught with potholes.





We heard a number of requests to add a primer chart in the Speer manuals I wrote showing what the various primer makers call their primer types. Note that there are no such charts in my books. Why? First, switching primer brands from what we used in the manual could create an unsafe condition. Second is accuracy of information. One of the last Speer manuals before I took over printed a nice chart of primer sizes and manufacturers’ numbers. Almost before the first printing was sold out, one company completely changed its numbering system, and a foreign brand listed became unavailable. Hardcover books are almost like engraving stuff in stone, and I did not want a chart—that may be obsolete before the book ran its course—to create problems.





As for the “which is hotter/colder” discussion, a similar conundrum exists: primer specification change. CCI overhauled its entire primer line in 1989. We were careful to make certain that the new primers could share load data created with the older versions, but not every change is announced. Another time, shortly after a writer friend of mine had a lab shoot a complete series of rifle ammo with the only difference being the primers, another primer maker came up with a change that affected the outcome of that test.





Here’s a classic example of a printed mistake being taken as gospel: Another company’s reloading manual had a chart of primer numbers and types that incorrectly showed the CCI Benchrest primer as being interchangeable with the CCI Magnum primer. This was perpetuated over several editions of that manual before we convinced that company to correct it. People would call CCI and demand that our Benchrest primer was a Magnum because it was printed that way in another company’s manual.





Bottom line: If I publish a primer performance equivalency chart today, it will soon be obsolete, and some poor sod will try substituting primers based on invalid information. I apologize to the nice person who recently wrote my editor suggesting I do a handgun primer equivalency test, but it can lead to too much grief. Stick with published and current load recipes.





Magnum Primers: Use As Directed
Most primer makers offer a standard and a Magnum primer in each size and application. The Magnum primer offers more power for challenging ignition scenarios. A large-capacity case, a heavily deterred propellant, or extremely cold weather (less than 20 degrees Fahrenheit) typically makes the Magnum primer desirable.





There are two ways to make a Magnum primer—either use more of the standard chemical mix to provide a longer-burning flame or change the mix to one with more aggressive burn characteristics. Prior to 1989, CCI used the first option in Magnum Rifle primers. After that, we switched to a mix optimized for spherical propellants that produced a 24-percent increase in flame temperature and a 16-percent boost in gas volume.





Literature from some propellant manufactures often says that their products do not require Magnum primers. This is perceived as a good thing because Magnum primers are made in smaller quantities and require more chemicals; therefore, they are more expensive. However, I had to take a different view, one based on real-world issues.





We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.





If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed.





A Myth-Conception
Like others who reloaded in the 1950s and ’60s, I heard the old mantra, “CCI primer cups are hard.” I used CCI primers long before I dreamed I’d be working for the company, and I never had problems. I had talked to other hand-loaders who claimed to have had some trouble. Arriving at CCI/Speer in 1987, I found out the real story.





The metal cups were neither harder nor softer than any other brand. However, the early noncorrosive primer mixes that Dick Speer and Dr. Victor Jasitis developed had one difference from many other primer products at the time—the dried pellet was rather brittle. This was not a problem unless the loader tried seating primers too deeply; in that case the anvil was forced almost to the cup, and the brittle pellet broke away from the anvil. With little mix under the ti
p of the overseated anvil, a misfire was lurking. I decided the reason I never had a problem was that I seated off-press with hand tools that let me feel the seating.





The mix that did not like overseating was retired years before I arrived in Lewiston. It just goes to show how old perceptions can linger even in the face of data and facts.





Too Much Primer
You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.





It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer’s extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix.
 
#18 · (Edited)
200 FPS was to be 20 FPS!



OOPS! Fat finger hit two 00's!

The only primer tested was CCI SPP vs. CCI SPP MAGNUM and WAC (Auto-Comp!) powder! That's all I could get!

Thank's for the heads up,
 
#16 ·
I've only tried one test with LP primers in 45 ACP with 230 grain bullets. I compared Win LP, CCI 300, and RP 2 1/2 primers using 4 different powders. Using the same charge wiith each primer Remington 2 1/2 consistently showed the higher velocity. Win LP was close to RP 2 1/2 and equal in some loads. CCI 300 primers always showed the lowest velocity by 30-40 fps but often showed the most consistent velocity in my 3 round tests. My unscientific test was just testing velocity and nothing else.
 
#19 ·
Primers have to pass a minimum all fire test. Ergo, I've always considered the claims that CCI primers were harder than others to be just internet lore.

The only folks I've ever run into with primer issues were revolver guys who messed with their hammer springs. I've reloaded for almost 40 yrs, using various primer brands interchangeably without a problem.
 
#20 ·
I have used all brands of large pistol primers over the years and have had good results with them all. Yeah, Federals are softer and CCIs are harder.

During one of our "shortages" the only LP primers I could find in quantity were Wolf. Gave them a try. They worked well, so I stuck with them. I've loaded and fired over 50,000 Wolf LP primers with not one failure.

The only failures to fire ocurred early on in my reloading using WWB fired cases. After uniforming those cases all problems disappeared.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk
 
#21 ·
Not disagreeing with anything posted but would like to add the following:

https://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0

I printed this out several years ago and have found it useful when considering primers. It does not strictly address the subject of this thread but has been educational for me over a wide range of primer applications.

There is a discussion of large vs. small pistol primers in handgun cartridges.
 
#27 ·
Gold mine of Primer information!



Thanks so much for sharing the article from sksboards.com!

I also printed out the article.....What a treasure!

Smiles,
 
#22 ·
My problems with inventory isn't primers. That's he easy part and takes up little space. The problem is with powder. For instance having 10,000 small rifle primers for .223 Rem you would need approximately 35 pounds of powder for just this one caliber. Bullets are available. Have been well stocked since the Klinton era and have been through a period where surplus bullets and powder were cheap and plentiful. Actually feel bad for those reloading in the recent past or new reloaders with shortages and high prices today.
 
#23 ·
Federals are not "hotter" than any other primer in it's range. The cup is thinner and it takes less of a hammer strike to ignore it. Another example of questionable information being posted.
If anyone actually has any scientific data to support otherwise, please post it for all to see.