Speaking of Fantasy

Nipplehead, it's not just about speed. It's about becoming a moving target to make it harder for the folks shooting at you. That's why you practice shooting on the move in both IDPA and IPSC. I've never shot an IDPA stage that started the shooter in the open and required them to move to cover before they can engage. That's P***P*** stage design!

You know I can find LEO's who say civilians shouldn't have guns, too. Doesn't make either group correct.

I suggest before you expound you're own fantasy, you take some classes from the folks at Tactical Response or others. Neither IDPA nor IPSC will prepare you for a real life event but I submit to you, it'll happen a whole lot less like a typical run and gun IPSC stage.

Bottom line, awareness of your suroundings and your ability to act rather than react will save your bacon more than shooting either of these sports.

 

You know I can find LEO's who say civilians shouldn't have guns

The reverse can also be said, however LEO's ARE CIVILIANS empowered (by Job description) with a duty to "Protect and Serve" society as a whole from those that chose to engage in activities that violate it's laws.

<off the soapbox>

Any lawfull activity (read shooting sport) that promotes the ablity to increase ones proficiancy with fireams is GOOD.


One of the BEST TACTICS is NOT part of any shooting sport or disipline. This is AVIODANCE and ESCAPE. Could you imagine the penalties assessed for NOT engaging a stage?

 

USPSA & IDPA are both good training for dynamic gun handling, and miserable training for real world self defense.
Do some force on force work, and you will realize what I mean.

 

I've posted this before here and at other forums. This is the best response I've read. It is from Rob Leatham posted at brianenos.com

I recently ran a class of military shooters, and among other things, ran them through the IDPA classifier, Participated in a local steel match and shot The Arizona State IDPA Championships! Let me share with you some interesting observations. They get more wound up and nervous in a match than they do in combat! Why? Because they have time to think about it and get tense! I respect these guys opinion more than ANY so called tactician out there who is sure he knows the tricks to surviving an armed confrontation. These guys have been doing that a bunch lately and think IDPA and IPSC shooting both offer much to the testing phase of ones ability. On the other hand, they to a man do not agree with the philosophies that either is inherently more practical. All the little things like which way do you turn or where you do the load is all something that we can discuss all day on the range, but on the battlefield, men do things that may not be considered practical or tactical and live because they did it fast, accurately and decisively. On the other hand, there are those who did it "right" by some folks judgement and still lost. We all have our ideas of how it should be done, and the rules of the existing games are just that, some ones ideas. To say going to any kind of shooting event will teach you technique that will get you killed is idiotic and irresponsible. Guys, it is cool to have your own plan but do not try to pass it off as gospel to the rest of us. A discussion of technique and philosophy seldom ends with agreement, but that does not make the other guy wrong or stupid. These are just games designed to test your abilities in a very controlled and pre-planned arena. Who wins is your best shot, not your most likely survivor. That can not be tested under the clock. However, those that master executing under the timer are probably more likely to do well in a pressure situation, than someone who chokes, misses or gets procedural penalties. This is a point the boys all agree on, thus they train hard and test themselves in the arena of competition to see what they know and whether they can do it.
Rob

 

I can not find the like but I read a comment for Karl Rehn that in this training the IPSC / USPSA shooters do better then the IPDA because they are not locked into the rigid tactics that are required in IDPA.

 

USPSA & IDPA are both good training for dynamic gun handling, and miserable training for real world self defense.
Do some force on force work, and you will realize what I mean.

And THERE, ladies and Gents, it is!
If one THINKS that either of these sports/games are preparation for the *real thing*, your first 3 seconds against targets that can move, think, use cover and shoot back will, without a doubt, amply demonstrate to you the error of your ways... of course, there are those who just *know* that their first few times force on force was just a fluke and those match tactics MUST prevail....BUT.. after multiple FX hits taken without giving a single hit back in return, the message finally begins to hit home.
If you are going to fight with guns, you are going to get shot. What works great in a match will probably get you shot in the real world. ALWAYS remember the rule of *plus one*. If you don't have to be there, DON'T be. Most importantly, USPSA and IDPA are games, with rules. In a real life self defense situation, there are no rules... ALWAYS CHEAT, ALWAYS win.
My. 02.

 

Except most LEO say IDPA tactics will get you killed.

Do you have survey results to back that statement up? If so I find that odd, since everyone knows "most" LEOs only shoot to qualify once or twice a year, therefore, they could hardly be credible experts on the subject.

 

Being ex-military I was trained in the application of the 1911, M14 and shotgun. Non-of that training looked like IPSC or IDPA. But once GQ sounded and the team assemebled to deploy that feeling is one you will never get on the range.

I see these threads all the time and wonder why so much energy gets spent on this subject? I myself joined IDPA and IPSC, I will just have fun and shoot both (I like shooting competitive plates even more).

Pretty straight forward, if you feel the need to be a pistol combat expert the Armed Services could use a few good men right now and they will pick up the check . Only bummer is for pistols you have to shoot minor :biglaugh:

Life is short, shot safe, shoot straight!
Cheers,
Ty

 

The thing

That each gives is handgun handling experience and movement while engaging experience. Most every one will seek cover/concealment, it's just human nature. Not many of us will enter to clear, while we never seem to have scenerio's that have us engaging targets while leaving an area for cover. Most competetive shooters are one up on LEO's who only have annual or bi-annual qual's. I believe the saying goes something like this. "All plans are changed at first contact with the enemy". Almost all civilain shootings will be in reaction to a situation, very few of us will have the advantage of prior warning. Train, practice, train, and more practice and your chance of survival should be better, especially vs those who do neither.

 

Do you have survey results to back that statement up? If so I find that odd, since everyone knows "most" LEOs only shoot to qualify once or twice a year, therefore, they could hardly be credible experts on the subject.

While I can not speak for *most* LEOs, I can speak for myself. Unlike *most LEOs*, I shoot about once a week. I also take part in training as a member of several tactical teams, as well as training others. Unlike *most* LEOs, I also take part in things like the National Tactical Invitational AND run willing participants through simunitions exercises. While *most* LEOs may not tell you this, I will..... In 100 percent of all instances, inwhich I have ran competitive IDPA shooters, of sharpshooter, and higher classifications through a simunitions exercise, 100 percent of them have lasted no more than 3 seconds after the initial altercation in which deadly force is an option. IN additon, 100 percent of them were *whacked* before they got off a shot. Why? Because match tactics do NOT work in real life. IDPA is a game. It is NOT self defense or tactical training. It is a game. IDPA and IPSC are great for developing dynamic handling skills with a weapon.. they are NOT training.. the are games.. period.
My .02

 

Bravo you proved it IDPA worthless for training

[ While *most* LEOs may not tell you this, I will..... In 100 percent of all instances, inwhich I have ran competitive IDPA shooters, of sharpshooter, and higher classifications through a simunitions exercise, 100 percent of them have lasted no more than 3 seconds after the initial altercation in which deadly force is an option. IN additon, 100 percent of them were *whacked* before they got off a shot. Why? Because match tactics do NOT work in real life. IDPA is a game. It is NOT self defense or tactical training. It is a game. IDPA and IPSC are great for developing dynamic handling skills with a weapon.. they are NOT training.. the are games.. period.
My .02[/QUOTE]
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Its sooo funny IDPA guys take that game so serously . It is abosulutely useless on the street. Fantasize all you want about your game ,those targets aint shooting back!
I,m curious are there any common dimominaters that IDPA techniques share with your tactical training? Im guessing no if 100% failed to get a shot off.

 

I always get the rule book out before a fight. Got to come to an agreement first on the rules of engagement. IDPA vs IPSC a wasted conversation in my book.

 

... ALWAYS CHEAT, ALWAYS win.

dbltaptm45......you......you GAMER .......you...

 

[/QUOTE]
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Its sooo funny IDPA guys take that game so serously . It is abosulutely useless on the street. Fantasize all you want about your game ,those targets aint shooting back!
I,m curious are there any common dimominaters that IDPA techniques share with your tactical training? Im guessing no if 100% failed to get a shot off. [/QUOTE]

Things that got them "killed" were as follows:
A. The predominant problem was an inability to leave the "game" mindset at the door and forgetting that the "targets" were thinking and moving as well.
B. Upon seeing an armed roleplayer through the doorway, rushed through the doorway into the room without pieing the corner to see if a second player was hiding against the wall. The roleplayer was a ruse to suck them in, and it worked.
C. After shooting an unarmed roleplayer in the back as he ran away, forgot the rule of plus one and forgot that life is 360 degrees and not a square range. As a result, was then shot in the back as the second role player came in behind the participant.
D. Failure to disengage when the opportunity was present, then drew on a drawn gun.
E. Failure to use cover properly, ie. Stood in the open when cover was available and attempted to shoot it out with a role player.
F. Telegraphed movement to draw the firearm and was shot by a roleplayer before the gun cleared leather.
G. Failure to move off of the line of force.
H. Failure to constantly scan 360 degrees.
I. Clearing doorways by opening the door, then standing in front of it. Efforts were not made to open the door tactically, ie. opening it from one side and then moving away in order to pie the corners.

Many were so used to having a set course of fire laid out in front of them, that they only looked in one direction. Never behind them or to the sides. Often when a roleplayer was encountered, they tunneled in on this person and lost contact with other roleplayers that were present.
Life is NOT a square range.
My. 02

 

dbltaptm45......you......you GAMER .......you...

YES!! My goal is to always go home at night :rock:

 

[ While *most* LEOs may not tell you this, I will..... In 100 percent of all instances, inwhich I have ran competitive IDPA shooters, of sharpshooter, and higher classifications through a simunitions exercise, 100 percent of them have lasted no more than 3 seconds after the initial altercation in which deadly force is an option. IN additon, 100 percent of them were *whacked* before they got off a shot. Why? Because match tactics do NOT work in real life. IDPA is a game. It is NOT self defense or tactical training. It is a game. IDPA and IPSC are great for developing dynamic handling skills with a weapon.. they are NOT training.. the are games.. period.
My .02

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Its sooo funny IDPA guys take that game so serously . It is abosulutely useless on the street. Fantasize all you want about your game ,those targets aint shooting back!
I,m curious are there any common dimominaters that IDPA techniques share with your tactical training? Im guessing no if 100% failed to get a shot off. [/QUOTE]

But you somehow think that IPSC is better for real life training? What a maroon.

 

Of course he does, because he can draw from his skeleton holster and hose down a host of bad guys before a silly IDPAer can get his concealment garment clear of his holster!! Yeah Right! :biglaugh:

 

There is an odd parallel here to other endeavors in our society. Hockey parents get into fist fights over hockey games played by their children. A father down in the states actually ended up killing another parent over a stupid hockey game. I suspect in many ways these are the same adults who play IPSC/IDPA sports and think it has something to do with tactical urban warfare and argue intensely over the reasons behind one rule over another as opposed to reading the rules, playing the game and enjoying their shooting sports. "Is one better than the other" questions are sent out over the net to somehow justify their decision to join one over the other.

Jeez, I am not a LEO nor am I in the military. Where I live we pay people to keep us apart and they do with some sucess. Assuming I purposely avoid the drug districts of our major cities, my chances of being involved with any kind of conflict are likely less than 1 in a gazillion, I suggest without getting a calculator out the odds are likely less than that in the States. If the average LEO in the US doesn't feel the need to practice his brains out with his handgun and he is, I assume, dealing with the problems of our societies on a regular basis than what are we all so collectively paranoid about?

From some posts I get the feeling there are people out there with CCW permits that actually hope they do get in a conflict or worse yet actually expect to.

If I read dbltaptm45 correctly, in the event of a shoot out by civilians without proper tactical training, the chances of survival on the street are slim and none and slim just left town.

 

This IPSC/IDPA "conflict" is about as valid as

Formula 1 vs Indy cars/NASCAR vs NHRA as "pure" motorsport.

It's all a GAME, folks. Unless and until YOUR life is in danger, you can come back and try again. That makes it a game - period.

Real gunfights don't have a RESET button.

 

Yea i do think so....

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Its sooo funny IDPA guys take that game so serously . It is abosulutely useless on the street. Fantasize all you want about your game ,those targets aint shooting back!
I,m curious are there any common dimominaters that IDPA techniques share with your tactical training? Im guessing no if 100% failed to get a shot off.

But you somehow think that IPSC is better for real life training? What a maroon. [/QUOTE]
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets face it neither will know the correct tactical things to do as per doubletap.
IPSC shooters are more creative and better shooters period and if you dont know that you must not shoot it. BTW I knew this would suck the IDPA crowd in like babys to milk ......It least USPSA doent pass itself off as some sort of quasi tactical/competition hermathodite like IDPA and since the training is BS all we got left is skill,speed and creativity = USPSA :biglaugh:

 

I see this creativity crap and think on your feet BS about IPSC all the time. You do all your planning long before you draw your gun. It bears about as much resemblance to a gunfight as a slam dunk competion does to a normal basketball game. :biglaugh:

 

Are you refering to stage planning or gunfight planning?

I see this creativity crap and think on your feet BS about IPSC all the time. You do all your planning long before you draw your gun. It bears about as much resemblance to a gunfight as a slam dunk competion does to a normal basketball game. :biglaugh:

Sure when looking at a stage you decide where your going to drop you mag on the ground...and thats IF all goes as planned and there are no misses but things change it is much more reactive,flowing, and instinctive then regimented choppy IDPA will ever be. Also BILL you must admit the highest skill level shooters are in USPSA. The I Dont Practice Anymore crowd and believe what they want ...that game dont transfer into usable skills now and I doubt it ever will.

 

From reading your posts may I suggest you are both right. They are both games, neither speaks to a real life situation, except perhaps for the shooting skills involved. Just games fellows. Both are fun. The only knock I have on IPSC is the silly, politically correct egg shaped targets. I now it meets the sensitivity levels of the Euros and anti gun crowd but really....

 

Interesting.
More folks seem to agree that IPSC and IDPA are NOT helpful as regards training for "real life" use of a pistol for self-defense than I would have expected.

I certainly agree.
Folks love games, myself included.

I choose NOT to play any "gun games", however, since I don't wish to inaugurate or reinforce habits that are other than helpful to survival.
And FWIW, an obvious problem with gun games is that the "solutions" to the "problems" posed almost ALWAYS seem to involve shooting, which surely is unrealistic.

Other than rare venues such as the National Tactical Invitational, I would go so far as to suggest that the playing of gun games may actually be inimical to safety.

 

Oh you lovable Canucks

From reading your posts may I suggest you are both right. They are both games, neither speaks to a real life situation, except perhaps for the shooting skills involved. Just games fellows. Both are fun. The only knock I have on IPSC is the silly, politically correct egg shaped targets. I now it meets the sensitivity levels of the Euros and anti gun crowd but really....

We dont see those silly Egg targets shooting USPSA here in the states...thank God!!! The hell with the euros and anti gun crowd...I feel for you guys ..Talked to some gun owners in Toronto at a hockey turney sounds like your laws are way tuff.... no handguns off you domestic dwelling except at range is that the jist? :bawling: