I'm not an expert but I'd say too much was cut off the lugs during fitting the barrel, there should be a nice flat spot for the pin to sit as it is locking up. Nothing that fitting a new barrel wouldn't solve IMHO. Here's a link with pics:http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/02/22/fitting-the-1911-barrel-part-3-the-link/

 

For maximum accuracy you should not have any play but in mass produced guns it is very common. If it were my gun and I wanted it to be a tack driver I would install (or have a smith do it) a match grade barrel from Bar-sto or Kart with a fitted bushing. Storm Lake makes a very good barrel for the money. You might call Ruger and complain but I think they will tell you it is "acceptable" and with specs.

 

Was your finger against the front sight or front of the slide?

I just tried this only Champion.Finger one the barrel and thumb on trigger guard just like you was doing.Just that way I pushed down hard ad I could with no movement.But if I braced my pinky finger on the front sight it kicked out of battery when I pushed down.Movement was nearly equal to what's in your video.And my Champion has the dual spring guide rod,ILS, and Springfield factory mainspring.

 

In the video, I was not touching the slide at all, my only contact with the gun was a thumb under the trigger guard and index finger on top of the barrel.

I had to do it that way so as to hold my camera in the other hand. With two hands, one hand on the grip, and one thumb or finger on the barrel was all that was required. This is not normal or correct.

 

As much as we'd all like to purchase a custom fit gun at production prices, it's unlikely to happen.

Some production pistols shoot better than than a cursory inspection would have you believe....and some don't.

The only way for you to tell if the accuracy is acceptable for your intended purpose would be to spend some time behind the trigger.

 

I built a long slide in 10mm and the lock up was so hard you had to push it into battery. After dissasembling, filing, reassembling and checking lock up, I was satisfied. Now, I have a little vertical movement as you are describing and I may have taken a hair more off than I should have, ( I am not a Smith such as Bob, Chuck, Log, Rob,etc.), and have maybe half of what you are showing. This gun will shoot offhand 100 yd gongs 6, sometimes 7 out of 7 & the 200 yard gongs probably 3 to 4 times out of seven, depending on how much coffee the shooter consumed before shooting. I'm not going to fit a new barrel because its way more accurate than I ever thought a 1911 could be. I don't know if that would have that big of an effect on the accuracy, but then again I only have about half of what you show. Would I buy it though? Probably not. hth, Dave

 

Most of the current generation of shooters have never handled any of the earlier 1911s, so zero frame of reference beyond what they read in the gun rags and forums is "correct." A lifetime of owning/handling military and civilian 1911s from WW1 vintage through early S80 production gives me a totally different perspective. Perfect lockup would be nice on every gun you pick up. Trouble is, that ain't what the design specs called for. Current definition of perfection is not totally set in stone (which I kinda like). One thing that is set in stone is that it, whatever it is, costs money. You want that, do what I do and break out the wallet.

 

Most of the current generation of shooters have never handled any of the earlier 1911s, so zero frame of reference beyond what they read in the gun rags and forums is "correct." A lifetime of owning/handling military and civilian 1911s from WW1 vintage through early S80 production gives me a totally different perspective. Perfect lockup would be nice on every gun you pick up. Trouble is, that ain't what the design specs called for.

Depends whose spec. Please read the Kuhnhausen manuals on the 1911 and they very clearly show how a 1911 was and is intended to be fitted. It's very clear how a barrel fits: lower lugs on the cross pin, upper lug against the slide. It is shown as a "three point support" for the rear of the barrel and it is absolutely secure.

No question that mass made guns could not be made that way and still sell cheap, but that does not mean the original spec was intended to be as crappy as the manufactured guns are. What any given manufacturer's specs are is anybody's guess, but I know how the gun is supposed to be made.

 

BBBBill nailed it, nobody likes a deal better than I have, however I have learned that for some special things, the only way to get them is pay the price.

LOG

 

I posted in the Ruger subforum about a couple Ruger SR1911s that I examined at a gunshop that did not exhibit proper barrel lockup. Whenever I handle a 1911, at least one that I am considering purchasing, I push down on the barrel hood. Both of these Rugers, one a 5 inch, and the other a new Commander, have aproximately 1/16 inch vertical travel at the rear of the barrel.

Most of the Ruger SR1911 owners in that thread reported no movement, some reported minimal movement, none yet reported the barrel movement at lockup as these two I looked at.

I went back and took a short video of the Ruger Commander, it can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxD-3vdd7uw

So for the experts here, what say you ?

As I say to any who listen, there are exactly two ways to make a 1911: the right way and any other way. The right way requires fitting the frame, slide and barrel. In lockup there can be no barrel movement because the lower barrel lugs rest securely on the crass pin. Guns like Wilson, STI, SVI, etc are made this way.

Then there are the mass made guns with pieces "in a tolerance range" thrown togenther and fitted with a hammer. If you can push the rear of the barrel down. it is "standing on the link" and not resting on the cross pin. The link was never designed or intended to support the barrel. This is due to either just poor fit or in some cases intentionally done in guns which are shooting too high and they have to bring the POI down. I have a Para 1640 like that.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

 

Is it ok for me to disagree with this? Because there are a lot of nice guns made that shoot much better than the guy holding it and they don't fit your description. My guess (and it is only a guess) is some of the people you tell that to think you are a snob. I am not trying to be an ass, just pointing out there a lot of very good guns that you just in a round about way called junk.

 

Ordinance and print spec allow for lockup on the link with about 10 thou between the lower lugs and cross pin.

Bob, BBBBill and Log pretty well covered the bases.

Some guns shoot quite well that way, but not usually consistently, or for an extended service life.

Some factory guns exhibit the barrel springing as described above, yet it disappears when a loaded round is present, usually due to the breachface holding the cartridge, and consequently the barrel, in a lower position.

CW

 

Ordinance and print spec allow for lockup on the link with about 10 thou between the lower lugs and cross pin.

Maybe your spec.

From:

"The US M1911 Pistols & Commercial M1911 type pistols/ A Shop Manual

By Jerry Kuhnhausen


REFER TO PAGE 131

The bottom lug surface bearing on the top of the slide stop cross pin acts to form the base of the triangle and lug contact point (at the top) forms the apex.


Does this sound like the lower barrel lugs are supposed to be ten thou above the crosspin?

No way.

Anybody who knows how to build a 1911 knows how they are supposed to be fitted. And, as somebody pointed out, CONSISTENCY EQUALS ACCURACY. And you get a positive, consistent lockup when the barrel is fitted as stated above. Maybe there's some other procurement spec somewhere (?) but adding slop doesn't mean that's how it should bebuilt.

Buy the book. It's in print everywhere.

Because there are a lot of nice guns made that shoot much better than the guy holding it

What has the relative skill of the shooter got to do with building a gun right?

 

If the pistol locks up consistently, then I wouldn't be concerned. Consistent lock up is more important imho that a very tightly fitted barrel.

 

I'm not sure how consistant and loose could go hand in hand. If
the barrel is loose it can and will vary how it locks up.

 

I'm glad to see some of our resident experts chiming in and know your opinions are highly valued. I really wish I could get my hands on one of these to compare accuracy to my very early production SR1911 that has zero movement. A few guys in the Ruger sub-forum have reported theirs has very little or no movement, so I have to wonder if Ruger has changed something in their production technique or this is an error. I guess time will tell as more get checked by the future buyers and present owners.

 

For the barrel to start dropping that fast with such a short amount of movement wouldn't the problem have to be a combination of the upper lugs being to shallow and the link too short?

 

Vertical barrel movement

I have seen pistols that will exhibit vertical play when placing force on the hood, and 1/16" of an inch is .0625" of play. Even so, some of these guns with that much vertical play shot 3-4 inch groups from a rest at 25 yds. with good quality ammo. Even though the barrel could be forced downward when handling the gun, it was apparent the gun locked up the same way consistently to allow decent combat accuracy at 25yds.

I have seen people take a loose vertical fit barrel, and purchase a Dwyer group gripper (now owned by Wilson Combat) and get decent 3" groups at 25 yds. with their 1911 .45's.

The optimal method of fitting a barrel is to have the slide stop pin support the lower lugs to eliminate vertcal play. Yet, some guns will still shoot with good combat accuracy even with some vertical play as long as the gun locks up the same way on a consistent basis.

If I were looking for a 1911 and found a gun with vertical play in the barrel, I would consider if the gun is a good value. If so, I might buy the gun and fix the barrel myself by welding the lower lugs and possibly the hood, then refitting. For those that don't have that option, unless you have the ability to test fire the weapon before the purchase, which is often not the case, then you may not have any idea how accurate the gun will be with a loose fitting barrel.... If you notice a barrel with vertical movement, if it is new, I would keep looking for other guns. If it is used, and a good value, it may be worthwhile to test fire the gun with good ammo to see how it performs.

If you are looking for a highly accurate gun, you may need to shell out more money for target grade weapons, or custom fitted guns with proven accuracy. I have found some very fine custom .45's made by Shockey, John Giles, and Jim Clark senior. I once purchased a custom Clark .45 with a mini Bomar Tuner rib for $400 back in the mid 1980's, which was less expensive than a Colt Gold Cup at that time. I used the gun for Bullseye for many years, and eventually sold it for an excellent profit..... the Bomar tuner rib allowed the barrel to be cammed downward for a tighter lock up against the slide stop pin....the idea never really caught on. It was designed to fine tune the lock up, but with a good fitting barrel, it is usually not necessary. If a barrel is cammed down too far with a tuner rib, then the firing pin hit becomes more off center, and the amount of upper barrel lug engagement may become too shallow.....

 

In the case of this pistol, the Ruger Commander in the video, I was pushing straight down on the barrel. However, as the barrel was pushed down, it was also going rearward, as is evidenced by the slide moving backwards. I would have loved to examined the link, lower lug and feet on that gun, but the store was busy, and it was evident that I was not going to buy it. I told the clerk what I was up to as I was shooting the brief video. He told me it was normal, before checking numerous other 1911s in the case. The two Rugers were the only ones with any appreciable amount of movement. He did not know what to say then.

I suspect, and maybe the experts here will have an opinion, that at lockup, the link was not going "past center" for lack of a better term. In other words, the axis of the slide stop pin hole was forward of the axis of the link pin hole. This would cause the barrel to pivot rearward when pushed down. In a properly fitted 1911, at lockup, the link travels "past center" so that the axis of the link pin hole is slightly forward of the axis of the slide stop hole.

It is hard for me to imagine even the worst fitted 1911 having that amount of slop (as seen in the video) in the link, without the link pivoting. The holes in the link would have to be way oversized. I have to wonder if the barrel feet are contacting the slide stop pin before the link goes past center. Then when pushed downwards, the link pivots rearwards.

 

I don't get it. Life long armorers and smiths of this pistol have stated their experience and actual ordnance specs. Yet still others talk of what a properly fitted 1911 barrel is supposed to be. It seems the learning available is stifled by what is wanted and is not reality.

It is obvious what may be done to the fit of these pistols but some refuse to accept what a production fit pistol is. It seems some want the skills and services of custom finite fitting for a production price. I've fitted more than a couple of 1911's and appreciate what these pro's do. I'll listen to them. I've experiments with parts swapping and can tell things will more likely be looser than desired unless ordered otherwise. If it is production grade and tight it is a coincidnce.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

I don't get it. Life long armorers and smiths of this pistol have stated their experience and actual ordnance specs. Yet still others talk of what a properly fitted 1911 barrel is supposed to be. It seems the learning available is stifled by what is wanted and is not reality.

Happens all the time. If you don't get the answer you want on one forum, go to others and sooner or later you will.

In the meantime, let's don't miss a chance to insult the experience of working guys.

Ordinance and print spec allow for lockup on the link with about 10 thou between the lower lugs and cross pin.

Maybe your spec.

From:

"The US M1911 Pistols & Commercial M1911 type pistols/ A Shop Manual

By Jerry Kuhnhausen



Buy the book. It's in print everywhere.

Nice.
Revel in your incredible knowledge base gleaned from one book.:biglaugh:

 

I went back and took a short video of the Ruger Commander, it can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxD-3vdd7uw

:barf:

 

Back to the original question. Obviously having zero barrel movement at lockup is more desirable than a little, a bit, or a lot.

Being a RO at a large club I get to handle many 1911s. If someone asks me to check out their new purchase, either new or used the first thing I check is lockup. I will tell you that there is a large difference between different guns even from the same manufacturer.

Springfield is a prime example. Some are tight, some are very loose. Even the same models. RIA is another good example. Some are as tight as my Bullseye guns and some are loose as a goose.

My biggest surprise came in handling Colts. You would expect them all to be good. They definitely are not.

Having said all this I really don't know how well any of those guns shoot but given the choice I'd go for the tighter fit, obviously. The exact same thing can be said about slide to frame fit. Again very variable.

If I were buying a new commercially mass produced gun I'd check a few samples first and go with the one that is tightest in all respects. I still wouldn't know if I picked the best shooter but at least I'd have the odds on my side.

 

I've had several PMs requesting the other parts to the link I posted in post #2.

Here they are, I don't know why they can't link them all together. :scratch::


http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/02/08/how-to-fit-a-1911-barrel-part-1-the-hood/

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/02/15/fitting-the-1911-barrel-part-2-bottom-lugs/

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/02/22/fitting-the-1911-barrel-part-3-the-link/

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/03/01/fitting-the-1911-barrel-part-4-headspace/

 

Alizard, I don't know if you're a troll or really just a dumbass, but when Bob and Chuck (et al.) post to a 1911 thread, you might as well assume the text came from the mouth of Jesus Christ himself.

 

I think I want to put that in my signature line

 

...And before you even ask, ALIZARD, here's the numbers that's derived from...

Print 7 detail C....bore centerline to link pin center... .503
print 7 detail J ...bore centerline to lower lug flat... .670
.670
- .503 = .167 - half of link pin diameter(.154 divided by 2 = .077) = .090
.278 standard link, minus half of pin diameters (.1565 + .2045 divided by two) =.180
subtract that from .278 = .0975

.0975 minus .090 = .075 difference in center section of the link versus thickness of the lower lug. Add tolerance stack, you get about .010 difference....
Had to take my boots off to do the math, but thats the numbers.
Send me an e mail and I'll send you the prints.
Read them, date them, and if in doubt, your welcome to call Mr. Kunhausen.
He may, or may not, answer, but I will.



CW

 

Wish I could add a "like" to this one.
Hans

 

Whoop! Sic'em Chuck

salty

 

Not trying to "hijack" the thread but:

Am I the only one who has ever tightened "verticle barrel lock up" by properly fitting a barrel bushing?

My mid 80's S/A N/M 45 "game gun" has about 20,000 rounds through it. Once groups began opening up I noticed that the bushing to barrel to slide was excessive. I was seeing slight verticle movement (springing?) as in the OP. Once I fit a "match" bushing with near zero clearance, (wrench required for R/R)this verticle movement ceased. In this case was the barrel "rocking" on the slide lock pin? I also found the same thing with my custom 9mm "game" gun and the same fix.

I never even thought a little verticle barrel movement or "springing" at the hood in lock up was a "problem" until I started reading "back and forths" on this thread. Or has tightening the barrel bushing just covered up another fitment problem.

Cheers,

John, SuperSeniorSingleStackShootist

 

So for the experts here, what say you ? I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know what proper lockup on a well fitted 1911 is like, and this isn't it. Comments ? How does this condition affect accuracy, reliability, longevity and timing ? I would really like to see the barrel feet and link on this particular pistol, but the store was busy, and I think it was obvious to the clerk that I was not going to buy the pistol. I really did not feel like asking to field strip it, especially after videotaping it.

Given the slide movement when you press on the barrel hood, I'd like to see the back of the recoil spring guide on the pistol you videoed.

 

Even though this thread is 7 years old, it still has some good information.....