What he said!!

 

Wow, thanks for sharing.

I thought if I ever found a nice original .455 Colt or S&W, I would reload for it. But guns altered by bubba's grandpa, I would have to pass on.

 

Did the factory .455 loads, any of them, use a hollow-base bullet, intended to expand to fit the chamber/barrel? I have a S&W Hand Ejector with a M1917 conversion cylinder, and while I can fit ACP and Auto Rim rounds loaded with .454" bullets into the cylinder, the gun might be more accurate with a hollow-base bullet?
Are there any good commercial cast bullets that replicate original .455 bullets in diameter and configuration?

 

Yes & yes:


http://www.buffaloarms.com/455_Webley_Bullets_it-157322.aspx?CAT=4135


Excellent post, OP. I have told people this for years and they ignore it & shoot .45 ACP.

 

RickB: The funny thing is while the .455 Webley cartridge is loaded from the factory/arsenal with a 265 grain hollow base round nose bullet, it is not the most accurate bullet I have used in my Webley Mk V and MkVIs. The Remington 250 grain RNFP sized .455 swaged soft lead semi-hollow base graphite lubed bullet is more accurate, but the real surprise has been the cast lead 255 SWC Keith style bullet that is a solid base sized to .454". It is very accurate with groups at 25 yards in the 1.5" to 2" groups which is better than the 2.75" to 3.5" groups with the traditional bullet. This is the case-pardon the pun-in either .455 cases or .45 ACP/Auto-Rim cases for the shaved cylinder guns....all loaded to .455 Webley velocities and pressures.

 

Some folks report decent accuracy with cast lead bullets that have been sized to .452" so the bullet if cast on the softer side will size up to the bore when fired.

 

My groups shrunk by more than half when changing from G.I. hardball to .454" cast bullets. I couldn't keep it on an 8.5x11 piece of paper at ten yards with the jacketed bullets, but got a 6" group with the cast. That's still not great accuracy, but I am willing to accept a pattern if I'm able to identify the center of it.

 

Yes, labeling the ammo and making sure that it is only for a certain gun is a must. Glad your S&W did not blow up as I watched one with hot Ruger level .45 Colt loads send part of its cylinder into orbit. With the Webleys I use only a certain bullet in them and label the boxes carefully. I also use .45 Auto-Rim loads in Webley pressures in it exclusively, for all my guns since I use heavy bullets in them, so no danger either way.

 

I have gotten rid of these old guys, but if you do not reload and preferably cast and size your own bullets then they are best as wall hangers.

Same with shooting something like a Colt 1905 in 45 ACP.

 

I think you have to be a handloader using the correct sized bullets downloaded to safe levels, otherwise they will ultimately fail with factory loads.

 

Good advice when buying an older gun beware a friend purchased a 38 special and did not realize that it was converted from an old S&W 32-20 very bad when +P loads were used

 

Handloading is not for the adventurous, safety and caution should always be your guide.

 

I fully agree. I suspect the reason that most shaved Webley's do so well is the slightly smaller ACP bullet diameter doesn't make it to its full pressure in the Webley chamber. If it did, there would be more pictures of blown up Webleys floating around.

Another one that bothers me is people shooting the modern hotter .32s in the M1895 Nagant. Here the slightly larger chamber probably helps to keep the kabooms to a minimum.

Years ago, I had a Charter Arms Bulldog which would actually chamber at least one brand of .44 Magnum. I doubt that combination would have survived the first shot.

Back when I had a shaved Webley, I considered loading it with cast bullets and FFFG.

 

I think that the cylinder chambers on Webleys tend to be tight, in the 450-452" range because of the hollow base design bullet for .455 Webley, but the bore is still .454-455" so believe me, I am sure factory .45 ACP has no problem getting up to above the proof pressure of 19,000-23,000 PSI which is far too high for a Webley to shoot safely. I look at it another way, it is not a matter of if, but when they will fail if shot with SAAMI spec 45 ACP. Many Webleys end up shooting themselves loose to the point of unserviceablity with SAAMI spec .45 ACP and then the owners stop shooting them since they don't shoot well. I know one gunsmith that has repaired many of them, told me that they were shot loose and it is evident as the owners told him that is what they did when he asks them. Most are shocked as to why the .45 ACP SAAMI spec ammo was the cause, some even don't want to believe it, but the engineering and ballistics doesn't lie. LOL!

 

I traded my shaved Webley to a good friend a few years ago. I paid $75 for it, (back in the 80s). We both shot cast bullets loaded moderately, and the pistol shot quite well for both of us.

I was surprised to discover how short the original .455 Webley case was. I wonder if a .45 ACP reamer was run into the shaved conversions to accommodate the slightly longer ACP case, or was this just not considered?

There is a .003" difference in the nominal neck diameter between the 2 cartridges.

Note; I am not saying shoot .45 ACP in your shaved Webley. I think that is dangerous/excessive pressure. Moderate loads in ACP cases, hopefully with lead bullets are fine.

Similar conditions exist with the M1895 Nagant revolver, and, strangely enough, with .38 Special revolvers. I have run across at least one case of a person thinking that .38 Super was a good cartridge to load in his mid 60s model 36 S&W.

Yes, you get higher performance. At the cost of higher pressure.

There is no free lunch.

 

I just shot a pair of Webleys in a WASA match this past weekend, a Webley-Greene target altered to shoot .45lc and a Mark IV in .455. I use .454 200gr rnfp bullets. In the past I have built hollow base bullets by drilling out the base of soft 230 gr lead bullets. I used these in a British Lion bulldog .450 revolver. Recently I worked up a load for my Webley Metropolitan Police revolver in .450 using Bullseye and a 160 gr rnfp bullet. Always keep your light loads away from the others, I use colored plastic ammo storage boxes the keep it straight, black for .45 lc rifle, lt blue for .45 lc pistol, solid green or red for .45 acp, clear white for my light web .450, clear red for the web .455, solid blue for my heavy long range .45 lc.

 

These non nitro proofed guns should only be shot with black powder or BP substitute to be safe. Even mild smokeless loads can cause the older guns to fail because of the sudden pressure spike.

 

My Good Webley Experiences.

Many of the surplus Webley's exported to the USA after WWII had ben altered to 45acp by the British Arsenal & reissued during WWII. The S&W model 1917 WAS MADE TO USE 45acp, in order to only supply 1 caliber of pistol ammo.
I have personally put many 45acp rounds through my Webley's. I had a MKIV short barrel birds head (the first smokeless powder Webley), & a pair of MKVI's. ALL SHAVED - I never had a problem. They got valuable & I sold them. I do miss the comforting weight of the MK IV in my jacket pocket sometimes. Now I have this small H&R 38 top break Pocket Pistol & a 22lr, I am fond of.

 

I have a 1915 S&W .455 Hand Ejector. (British version similar in configuration to the US Model 1917) I replaced the weaker .455 cylinder with a post war 45 acp cylinder and the bulged original barrel with a chopped 45 acp .452 cal barrel. Shoots like a laser.

I carry it every day.

 

Wow !



I love that & wish I had one just like it. I miss my S&W 1917, & Mk IV Webley.

Yours, has the best of both IMO.

 

Slug the barrel on a .455 and you'll find they can be as small as .448, that adds to the pressure situation.

 

On a Webley? Does it vary with "Mark", or date ranges?