[FDM1]

I appreciate the fact that you cherrypicked a very specific self defense situation to attempt to make your point. And yes, in a point shooting situation the red dot may not be that useful. Then again you don't really need a front sight post for point shooting either.

I also find it interesting...ironic...when people quote the very short AVERAGE distance of most self defense shootings. I mean if you're going to go with averages then why carry a gun at all because the odds of you actually ever needing one is incredibly small. And yet you still carry one.

But hey, it's your life. So you can certainly bet it on whatever averages you would like. However, in the chance that Mr. Murphy throws you a non-average situation, like needing to take a shot at a greater distance or needing to shoot somebody at night, or needing to time a shot because of innocent people downrange, or because a person has aging eyes, or a whole host of other situations, the red dot truly excels. It enables greater precision, it is enormously more visible in low light, AND...drum roll please...it allows you to focus on the target rather than on the front sight post...or having to transition from front sight to the target and back.

Plus concealing it is an absolute breeze in the right setup and in the right carry position (M&P Core w/RMR 06 in a JM Custom Kydex AIWB-WC holster, carried at appendix).

Who specifically are you addressing in your post?
I am not trying to be unpleasant or a language Nazi but the following statement makes no sense to me:
”I also find it interesting...ironic...when people quote the very short AVERAGE distance of most self defense shootings. I mean if you're going to go with averages then why carry a gun at all because the odds of you actually ever needing one is incredibly small. And yet you still carry one.”
Is “ironic” the word you meant to use? Ironic-using words that mean the opposite of what you really think especially in order to be funny.
It is a very rare occasion people get into handgun fights at long distances. In Detroit literally everyone is armed. Getting into any kind of fight in that city generally involves knives/guns/weapons.
They are not shooting at each other at long distances. Not to say it does not happen then they choose AK’s and AR’s. If you are referring to ”AVERAGES” in a city like Detroit (my hometown) you don’t want to be unarmed in any kind of fight or you more than likely will be a statistic.

Gangs have shootouts regularly at a variety of distances but most start out at very close ranges.
In a true SD situation as one might encounter in Detroit where for example you may be filling up your car, coming out of a restaurant a store or a venue you very likely could be attacked and have to shoot to defend yourself from an armed attacker.

The logic you use of “averages“ and not needing a gun would be flawed thinking in Detroit. You do not want to be unarmed under any circumstances.
The odds of being involved in a physical fight that escalates quickly in that city are much different than the “AVERAGES” I believe you are attempting to make a point about elsewhere. You would be in a minority and at a great disadvantage in Detroit if you were to go with the averages of not needing to be armed.

People I know personally who have been unfortunately involved in scenarios confronted by attackers and acting in self defense have had pretty stringent standards by which they were held accountable (as they and their attackers should be) using a weapon to defend themselves.

Distances are very much a standard by which people who enforce the law work with in determining cases to be prosecuted. Get outside of a certain defined distance in response to an attack and it can be the difference between being prosecuted or going home for that night. If you are at a distance you would need to employ a red dot or other advanced sighting system would mean you were are at potentially fleeing distance. Shooting at someone fleeing those distances more than likely leaves you in jail awaiting bail and an attorney.

Of course there could be other factors like multiple gang members all approaching you at once and you must act accordingly and not allow them in close proximity for the obvious reasons. There was one such scene not long ago on the East side of Detroit and a red dot or other advanced sighting system may have been very useful. But in a average robbery or attack that occur frequently in Detroit one on one or one on two or three it will likely be very up close and personal. But if you manage to get the upper hand and they are fleeing you don’t want to be shooting in that situation.

As far as the law is concerned you must be in grave physical danger and in fear for your or loved ones lives to use your gun and if that danger is not in a prescribed distance in the eyes of the law. You are getting charged prosecuted and tried. I don’t believe perhaps “ironic” or “averages” were the terms you meant to use.

 

[NC 1911]

Old guys with old eyes

Not around here. Most of the younger people seem to shoot c/o division at our matches

 

[UpperMW]

For me the effectiveness is about familiarity as much or more than technology. I've been an iron sight only shooter for many years. I put a red dot on one gun (STI Staccato P). At first I found it awkward and slow, but after practice I'm gaining in speed and accuracy.

Still, at this point I am irons for carry. In a stress filled crisis situation that familiarity and fewer things to think about are crucial. Some day I may get to that point with a red dot.

 

[RonS]

If a red dot sight is not an advantage in a given situation, it is likely that iron sights would not be either.

 

[jamiesaun]

An honest answer as to what/why you actually carry is a good answer. Period. It’s substantive rather than theoretical…+1911.

In a thread such as this, I’d be astonished if every person‘s answer went in the same direction. I don’t have a single holster that could even (properly) accommodate an optic on top of a 1911.

Zerobulk® Pro (IWB) Holster

Versacarry® is one of the world's smallest concealed carry holsters. Our ZeroBulk Holster® design fits most guns and is ideal for deep concealment and comfort.

versacarry.com

Best holster I've ever used, promise you'll love it. I don't use optics, but if I did it would be no problem for this little holster.

 

[jamiesaun]

I don't use them either. Mostly because I'm cheap. Also because it seems like it would be fragile and not conducive to IWB carry at 5 o'clock, which is where I carry.

Can anybody shed some light on that? Are they tough as nails or what?

 

[hardluk1]

I start using a tube type 2moa dot optic on a revolver for hunting back in '80 or 81 . As the years went buy both my wifes and my eye sight got to the point that target shooting with a 22lr was harder for my wife than I so I put a low cost 35mm red dot on a ruger 22lr pistol on a wegand base and for a few more years I had to work harder to out shoot my wife again !! Target shooting with pistols was a lot of 12ga hulls in sticks at 25 yards . Today target shooting for me is dot op[tic or scope .

Today few stock handgun sights work well for me for defensive flash sight shooting . Most front sights mostly fill the gap between front and rear sights instead of giving a shooter more light on each side of the front blade . At least thats my opinion with most factory sights .

For defensive shooting I don't want to " focus " on my sight's . All I need to be able to do wearing Trifocals under 15 yards is see to know my sights are well centered in my peripheral vision and from 15 to 25 yards I will glance or flash over my sights useing the more standard Flash Sight Picture style most teach for shorter distances . My carry today is a lw commander with gold bead on a skinny .10 wide front blade that gives me a nice gap of light on each side makes for easier " sighted " shooting for me .

We do have a couple m&p's , a compact 9mm with a holosun 507C-GR X2 and use the green circle only for some practice and now the same optic on my wifes older m&p core she used in matches but now is her house and fun shooting . I removed a RM02 from my wifes CORE do to lens tint in lower light made seeing a target harder to do when compared to stock sights and no optic .

I carry at a 3:00 position using one of two Comp-Tac hybrids . An 18 year old Neural model holster or a newer MTAC . These are very adjustable holsters for cant and height and at 3:00 my arm aids with concealment . It does not matter if theres a optic on a handgun gun or not BUT some kydex bodys will need to be notched for the optic At least on the older kydex options . I do not wear tuck in shirts but wear shirts that fit well from t shirts to latin style square tail linen shirts for when out with my wife at night .

So guys when picking a dot optic today figure out what color dot you see best Red , Green or there even Yellow out there for the red green color blind folks But note the clarity of the dot optics lens do to coating used . Many are made for outdoor use , not good for low light conditions were a gun or handheld light is not typically needed . I found open sights were still better over the tint used by trijicon on the RM02 .

Even with trifocal glasses I can ether focus on the sights or the target but transfer between them is s l o w for defensive needs but a thin front blade helps me to know I well centered and aligned using a front sight with a green fiber rod or mixed with the night sight or gold bead in day time like on my 1911 . But the flash sight picture shooting style that works well with open sights transfers easily to a dot optic . I know there will be a day I need to carry my m&p compact 9mm with green circle dot but its not now . If you carry a one lens dot optic BUY and USE a dust cover or your lens will get cluttered with lint at least .

I use dream Plastics flexable covers with a small braided sting attached to the cover and tied to a carabiner then to a belt loop . Pulls right off the optic when I draw .

Amazon.com : Dream Plastics Scope Cover for HoloSun 507C & 407C HS Red Dot (2 Pack) : Sports & Outdoors

 

[hal copple]

I don't have any dots nor any plan to add one to my firearms. I have a shooting buddy, like me, over 70, and he has found in his IDPA fun, that the longer shots in that "game" are much more accurate and about has fast as with the same guns with iron sights. But for the past few years, I have rarely shot my competition pistols, and practice often with my carry pistols, H&K's and a few others. Like yesterday, at an indoor range, practiced "snap' shooting both single and DA, and with weak and strong hand too. But I am also on my church's security team, and do practice shooting at a ranges which would be from the communion alter to the far back of the church. My friends tell me that learning to shoot with an optic takes time to "find" the dot, but for me, I have been shooting over iron for over a half century, and just can't learn a new way to shoot.

But for me, I relentlessly practice with my carry pistols, both in IDPA and just range time. I don't spend much ammo slowly shooting at some target for accuracy, just to check my sights and hold. I am as good as I am ever going to be with slow accurate shooting, so I spend my time over iron sights or just point and shoot with my defensive pistols. I don't think I could learn to shoot with optics as quickly as I can shoot with iron sights.

I know that "experts" here and other places talk about the importance of "shot placement", but for me that means center of mass on a threat. I was attacked by 8 thugs about 25 years ago, was unarmed at the time, and I can tell you it happened so fast I didn't even realize what was happening. It isn't like a range safety officer saying "...shooter ready" and then hitting the buzzer on a timer, with me standing all prepped to draw and shoot.

I would think anyone can try out an optic and see how it would work for then, in fun or a "bad experience." NV

 

[M-Peltier]

Transitioning to an optic on my carry gun was not a matter of "what if" for an actual self defense encounter. In all likely hood I will never have to use it in self defense. But I do practice with it, and often. This is where it was important for me to have a sighting system that is affective for me to train and practice with. At my age, my eyesight is such that I can not see my front sight without some form of reading glasses on. The optic allows me to use a target focus and no reading glasses. I also do drills with the optic shut off to simulate a battery failure. Hits are pretty easy at any distance out to about 15yds using the housing as a reference.

And for those wondering, I did post a review of the different optics I considered, what I chose and why, along with a picture of the holster I carry it in every day. I do not notice it one bit compared to my pre optic days of carry, and the optic has not failed to be on when I check it going on 6 months now. Its a SIG P365XL with a Holosun 507 in a kydex we the people paddle holster.

If you actually practice/train frequently with a self defense handgun, the self defense handgun you shoot best in practice/training will be the most benefit for a true self defense encounter. For some this might be irons. But until you dedicate some time to an optic, its just conjecture.

 

[jamiesaun]

I was attacked by 8 thugs about 25 years ago, was unarmed at the time, and I can tell you it happened so fast I didn't even realize what was happening. It isn't like a range safety officer saying "...shooter ready" and then hitting the buzzer on a timer, with me standing all prepped to draw and shoot.

So if it wasn't like idpa, shooter ready....what was it like Hal? Care to share the experience?

 

[ether]

.

 

[GlockLeg]

Who specifically are you addressing in your post?
I am not trying to be unpleasant or a language Nazi but the following statement makes no sense to me:
”I also find it interesting...ironic...when people quote the very short AVERAGE distance of most self defense shootings. I mean if you're going to go with averages then why carry a gun at all because the odds of you actually ever needing one is incredibly small. And yet you still carry one.”
Is “ironic” the word you meant to use? Ironic-using words that mean the opposite of what you really think especially in order to be funny.
It is a very rare occasion people get into handgun fights at long distances. In Detroit literally everyone is armed. Getting into any kind of fight in that city generally involves knives/guns/weapons.
They are not shooting at each other at long distances. Not to say it does not happen then they choose AK’s and AR’s. If you are referring to ”AVERAGES” in a city like Detroit (my hometown) you don’t want to be unarmed in any kind of fight or you more than likely will be a statistic.

Gangs have shootouts regularly at a variety of distances but most start out at very close ranges.
In a true SD situation as one might encounter in Detroit where for example you may be filling up your car, coming out of a restaurant a store or a venue you very likely could be attacked and have to shoot to defend yourself from an armed attacker.

The logic you use of “averages“ and not needing a gun would be flawed thinking in Detroit. You do not want to be unarmed under any circumstances.
The odds of being involved in a physical fight that escalates quickly in that city are much different than the “AVERAGES” I believe you are attempting to make a point about elsewhere. You would be in a minority and at a great disadvantage in Detroit if you were to go with the averages of not needing to be armed.

People I know personally who have been unfortunately involved in scenarios confronted by attackers and acting in self defense have had pretty stringent standards by which they were held accountable (as they and their attackers should be) using a weapon to defend themselves.

Distances are very much a standard by which people who enforce the law work with in determining cases to be prosecuted. Get outside of a certain defined distance in response to an attack and it can be the difference between being prosecuted or going home for that night. If you are at a distance you would need to employ a red dot or other advanced sighting system would mean you were are at potentially fleeing distance. Shooting at someone fleeing those distances more than likely leaves you in jail awaiting bail and an attorney.

Of course there could be other factors like multiple gang members all approaching you at once and you must act accordingly and not allow them in close proximity for the obvious reasons. There was one such scene not long ago on the East side of Detroit and a red dot or other advanced sighting system may have been very useful. But in a average robbery or attack that occur frequently in Detroit one on one or one on two or three it will likely be very up close and personal. But if you manage to get the upper hand and they are fleeing you don’t want to be shooting in that situation.

As far as the law is concerned you must be in grave physical danger and in fear for your or loved ones lives to use your gun and if that danger is not in a prescribed distance in the eyes of the law. You are getting charged prosecuted and tried. I don’t believe perhaps “ironic” or “averages” were the terms you meant to use.

I don't want to ruffle feathers but what is a "fleeing distance"? Considering you're dealing with someone firing projectiles at you that have the capability of killing you at 400+ yards if they're firing typical 9mm ammo, it might be the safest choice to put them down for everyone involved, especially if there's innocent bystanders and occupied houses nearby that these handgun rounds can easily penetrate. Remember, self defense also encompasses others around you who may be harmed.

I understand that prosecuting attorneys have a different, more ignorant viewpoint, and that they foolishly believe that you can actually determine a "self defense" or "fleeing" distance, when the fact is that a bullet can travel pretty damn far and still have the capacity to kill, thus IMO any such distance is a self defense distance.

That just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[yeti]

I get it. I love my Eotech red dot on my AR. It's awesome for precision shooting out to 200 yards and even further depending on the target size. On a pistol for target shooting I could see some advantages even.

But for defensive pistol use I just can't see that it would be much better at close range, high tension situations. At say, 2-7 yards in a quick draw and center mass aiming defense, most of your "aim" comes from point and shoot practice using your arms and body to align a center mass shot.

In those types of uses I don't see anyone having time to find and align a red dot any faster than the point shooting method. When queried about close range self defense, most people never even remember seeing the sight picture.

Plus a red dot on top of a pistol is harder to conceal and what not.

I really like RD optics and use them on multiple pistols. Good stuff.
Recently mounted a C-More on a revolver too....heresy!
Think we will see exponentially increased use of RD optics for pistols in the next few years, especially CCW.
Co-witness mini optic mounting on a factory milled slide is now available for more and more pistols.
Having a quality RD mini optic on a (factory or aftermarket) milled slide will offer a defender target focus sighting and additional options. If the optic fails, you can still point shoot.
The only downside would be a bit of extra cost and a minimally larger carry.

A legally justified self defense confrontation is just that, optic or no optic.

 

[2WorldWars]

Me and my 60 year old eyes do fine with Iron Sights. I wont be hopping on the Optics Bandwagon.

 

[FNHipowerluv]

At the range they make target acquisition a lot faster, since there is much less careful alignment that's needed. In combat, the same applies but like others said, irons or a red dot may not really matter in a situation where you don't have time to fully utilize either.

For what it's worth, LAPD just purchased a large number of FN 509 pistols with red dots equipped. Perhaps they'll become more mainstream in various professions.

 

[SChief454]

As an Optician and older shooter that is both far sighted and presbyopic I can attest to the benefits of RDS. Most shooters under the age of 50 or so won’t understand this until they experience presbyopia and are unable to focus on their iron sights at any distance. The status of your vision correction makes a big difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[TheDreadnought]

IMO you’re introducing another point of technological failure in exchange for a marginal improvement.

May make sense for competition, not for defense.

In addition, you now need to train to become skilled with two sighting systems, rather than one. As another poster mentioned, it’s easy to “lose the dot.” Which is fine if you can draw and present the same way every time. But the dynamics of a self/defense encounter may not allow for that.

So, maybe it will help you in a defensive encounter. Maybe it will hurt you.

Not worth it for me. YMMV.

 

[BLikeYork]

I seem to remember that decades ago people would remove the hammer spur on their revolver as to make a snag during presentation less likely. It also appears modern plastic guns are pretty streamlined to prevent corners.

Are these optic types a snag threat during presentation from a IWB rig?

 

[mkk41]

I'm not cop-bashing , but I've seen enough news reports where cops fired a full magazine and got few , or no hits on the target. But bystanders were hit, some killed, by their errant shots. There was just a couple of local incidents where multiple cops let loose rapid fire, missed the perps shooting at them, and killed bystanders. We can say ''more training/practice in basic marksmanship , but any advantage to help get hits on target is a good thing and should be taken advantage of. And could save a good cops career.

 

[rangertrace]

Lots of good responses on here. I've tried to love Carry Optics style pistols for competition and work, but I always come back to irons. It's just one less thing to worry about on a duty/carry gun. Can I shoot a dot more accurately at 50 yards....absolutely. 10 and in, absolutely not. Dots really have no place on a carry pistol if you are trying for smaller and lighter.