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When will Colt start using a cast frame?

9.4K views 57 replies 38 participants last post by  KyJim  
#1 · (Edited)
I was just reading the thread about cast vs forged on the General Discussion forum. Seems some pretty good manufacturers are moving to cast frames. To my knowledge, which is limited on this subject, only SA and Colt are still using forged frames. This is excluding the high end customs of course. From that I would gather cast is the direction the lower end 1911 will go. I'm wondering how long Colt will continue to produce a gun with a forged frame? When their machines need to be replaced will they go to cast? Or will they go against convention and try to compete with others who have cut operating costs by using cast frames? If they stay with forged frames are their prices going to increase? Are they moving into a semi-custom market? From what I see it would be a very short trip for them to go there judging from my GC Trophy. The custom shop gun street prices would indicate they are very close to being there now although Colt advertising would not lead one to believe that.

What is the consensus?
 
#6 ·
Colt no longer operates a forge, therefore they have no machines to replace. Colt contracts the forging process to an outside vendor. Colt supplies the steel and the dies to the contractor.
 
#9 ·
The day Colt moves to cast frames will be the day their sales plummet. Some of us actually buy Colts for reasons other than simply getting a nice little horsey stamped on the slide.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Lost - Odd question - odd thought process..... Just because other companies do something to get a cheaper price point does not mandate it for anyone else. If Colt's were going to do it, they could have done so in the 1970's! Forged is stronger, and this is a thin walled part.

Most of the Cast Frame guns always were - they didn't have a forge, and some always bought their frames and slides elsewhere. There was no "migration to cast" from forged. Ruger casts everything, and Remington uses a lot of castings and MIM.

Colt has no reason to "go to cast frames". That is for the lesser marque's, and "Forged in USA" has been a Colt Trademark for some time..... Quality parts and materials is part of the Colt mystique. Ruger can get away with cast. Colt could not! CC
 
#25 · (Edited)
Lost - Odd question - odd thought process..... Just because other companies do something to get a cheaper price point does not mandate it for anyone else. If Colt's were going to do it, they could have done so in the 1970's! Forged is stronger, and this is a thin walled part.
Odd? Maybe, but I have to wonder about the cost of producing a gun from forged parts. There are a lot of 1911's out there in the $700-$1000 price range using MIM. There are a lot of semi-customs in the 2K to 4K price range using forged parts. Colt seems to be in the middle. There doesn't seem to be many manufacturers in the middle so I'm just curious why. Profit possibly, I don't know. Seems to be precarious place to be and here is my reasoning, if you want to call it that. A person decides to buy a 1911. He can have a pretty good shooter for way less than 1K but it's not a candidate for customizing. Or he can have a Colt for 1K and change but it's not a custom, it's still just a mass produced gun. Or one can have a custom for 2K, built to their specs and be done with it.

So probably Colt will never use a cast frame. But it seems to me they are locked into building an expensive mass produced gun. I'm not arguing the point of better, I happen to think they build a very good gun for the money and most here would agree, but we are only a small fraction of folks buying 1911's.
 
#17 ·
Here is a part of an article I found on Investment Casting. The higher "notch strength" this article talks about cast frames having makes me wonder if it wouldn't have improved the low 12,000 round frame life colt's rail gun had in testing trials before developing Frame and slide cracks. And if you do a little research you will notice the rail gun cracked precisely at these "notch" points on dust cover. I personally don't know if colt should move to cast or not. Just saying after reading the article below and seeing the frame cracks colts forged frames experienced in testing at all the "notch" points it just makes me wonder??

Article Start-
I became very familiar with the investment casting process when I
worked at Sturm-Ruger. To describe all the facets of it would fill a
book, but I can give you a brief description. The parts to be cast
start as an injection moulded wax model of the part, which is done with
great precision, with the dimensioning of the die calculated to control
the shrink rate of the wax and the size mould it will make when the wax
is burned out and the silica shell surrounding it is fired. The wax
pieces are gated together in assemblies of maybe several hundred small
parts, or about 12-15 rifle receivers or revolver framed, sometimes
combining smaller parts in the assembly which is called a "tree",
because it looks somewhat like a tree when finished. This assembly is
first dipped in a thin slurry of silica dust and water, then
alternately coated with progressively larger sizes of silica and more
slurry until a heavy shell is built up around it which will stand
normal handling in the foundry. Groups of the trees are cured until
dry, and after a correct period of time they are fired in a kiln which
burns out the wax form, hence the name "lost wax" used to describe the
process. The fired shells are stored until needed, and prior to casting
are heated red hot in a gas furnace, while the steel alloy is melted in
an electric induction furnace. Stainless steel parts are often cast
with vacuum melted steel in a controlled atmosphere such as nitrogen or
argon to control oxidation. Common alloy steels such as 4140 chrome
moly are cast in normal ambient atmosphere, but the open mould sinks
are covered immediately with a de-oxidant compound. After casting the
silica shell is broken off and the individual parts cut away from the
connecting gates. The parts are then cleaned, usually by sandblasting,
then visually inspected, and criticial parts such as rifle bolts,
revolver frames and rifle receivers are inspected by x-ray and/or
ultrasonically, before being annealed, straightened, and lotted up in
groups to be sent to the machine shop. In my experience I feel that
investment casting as done at Ruger is far superior to forging because
it reduces the stock removal necessary to make the finished part, and
permits use of alloys which cannot be machined by common stock removal
methods. Consequently, Ruger can use materials of a very low sulphur or
selenium content with a high hardenability which provides greater
tensile and compressive strength than the lower alloys other
manufacturers much use because their manufacturing processes require
use of additives like sulphur or selenium to obtain acceptable
machinability. I feel that resulphurized steels should not be used in
thin sections or in applications where extensive machining is required,
because of their greater notch sensitivity. We routinely subjected
Ruger rifles and revolvers to testing which destroyed competitor's
products.
 
#19 ·
What happened at the trials was there was a 12,000-round life-expectancy provision with no parts replaced. As you know, you cannot shoot 12,000 rounds on the standard recoil spring without experiencing severe frame/slide battering, which is exactly what happened. Colt went back and beefed up the frame and came up with a double recoil spring arrangement, and the pistol then passed the test.
 
#21 ·
I don't remember the frames cracking, just the slides.
 
#26 ·
Thanks, I remember seeing it now. Like the slide cracks all the failures were the result of stress at the sharp edges, where as any engineer will tell you they create severe stress risers. Colt remedied the issues by fixing the stress risers, and the new M45 is probably the best railed 1911 on the market. I've told myself I'm going to get one someday, if only my @&#$! automobiles would stay roadworthy for more than a couple months at a time.
 
#24 ·
To be clear, Colt supplies an outside forging company the metal and the forging dies and they supply Colt with the raw forged frames.
It just doesn't make economic and safety sense for Colt to operate a full forging operation.

What Colt gets is back from the forging company is a vaguely gun shaped lump of steel from which they machine a finished gun.
Colt also buys raw forged AR-15 series receivers from outside forging operations.

Over on the AR-15 forum someone recently posted a couple of photos of AR's being made at Colt Defense.
They showed racks of raw AR lower forgings ready to go into the CNC machine.
Some gun companies decided to stick with forged frames and receivers, Colt is one, so is S&W, Remington, and Marlin among others.
 
#28 ·
You didn't read my post did you? I buy Colts also. All of my 1911's are Colt's. I'm not questioning their quality. I'm just curious how they plan to continue to build in that price range and continue to use forged parts. :confused:
 
#48 ·
Cast or forged frames really doesn't matter except for the idea of it. Many pistols have aluminum or even plastic frames. Ruger even makes some pistols that the slides run on the plastic rails. The quality of the product is what is important. I wouldn't trade my SR1911 for 2 Taurus 1911 pistols. I do like Colt and I have a couple of them but I also have Kimber, Springfield and the Ruger.
I've seen too many problems with Taurus guns and wouldn't buy one unless allowed to run a hundred rounds thru it first.